Breed Standards and changes over time Discussions

It's a topic that really interests me, looking through my two chosen breeds, I think Labradors have changed more in comparison to flat coats, for the show ring. Photo shows a past dual champion, and a current fairly typical show bred Labrador. If I had to choose which one I prefer it would definitely be the past dual champion.



You do still see similar Labradors but they don't do as well in the show ring necessarily, although that varies depending which country and which judge. It'd be interesting to hear if others have spotted similar things happening with their breed(s) and whether they think it's an improvement or not.

I to love the look of yester year dogs, take the Basset Hound it use to have longer legs & tighter skin now they so low to the ground & have folds of skin that needs bathing every day to stop sores.

I wonder if comparing dogs of yesteryear to today's dogs is a bit of a pointless exercise, if you are just going on looks and liking the look of them to now I can understand , but comparing Heath and improvement to yesteryear, is pointless unless you have Heath records to back up a theory that they were healthier or better.

I like the look of some breeds from generations ago, and some from now.

I think there is a lot of movement today regards exaggeration and breeders working to lessen this.

Health testing on the other hand was probably none existent, so it's got to be better today with all the health and genetic testing we can now do.

Wow that current lab, yuck imo. I like the old photo.

People have really made a mess in some breeds with exaggerated looks, but others maintain very similar build.

I much prefer the overall balance of the dog in the older Lab. photo. I have read that there have been similar concerns about diminishing leg length in Goldens. Also, in the sixties, when I had them, Goldens lived up to their name, being a variety of shades of gold in colour. This range of colour against the green of the grass at a Summer show was a thing of beauty - the dogs seemed to glow in the sunshine. These days, I would call the majority of show bred dogs cream.
Darker colours do persist in Obed. and FT stock - some of them being far too dark for the show ring.

The types of GSD’s vary tremendously, but this is just ridiculous. I now despair at what has been done to a once beautiful breed.

I once had to take a very young puppy to the Royal Veterinary College in Hertfordshire to be seen by an ophthalmologist. While we were waiting a GSD was being dragged in by his two front legs by two women. Two of the veterinary nurses rushed out and carried him in on a stretcher.

He could not walk. He had come from Germany, illegally, because the women wanted his sperm as he looked so wonderful. But however wonderful he looked, he could not walk. His sperm had been used in Germany, taken illegally by a vet, but when the vet was struck off they could not find another one to do it. So somehow they got him into England and thought the RVC would "do the deed".

I doubt they did.

That little Griffon puppy of mine? He ended up blind in one eye but it looked normal. And I called him Folly.

How sad Vee. With his heritage the GSD should really be the king of working dogs. So many couldn't do an hour's work. It might help if they had to have a Working Trial qualification to become a full Champion - like the Gundogs do. Breeders would have to pay more attention to fitness for function, and be proud of the extra kudos a full title would bring.

the first pic looks photo shopped to me, just look at the head

The second pic looks as bad as any GSD today that is over exaggerated , look at its hind legs, isn't that what folk are up in arms about.

I`d like to see proof of that, how can you say they were fitter and healthier, unless you have data (health) to back it up, just because you may like the look of "older" versions of a breed does not mean they were healthier or fitter.

I think the GSD is a good point of topic for this thread in as much as what do you class as work and what do you class a a working dog and which can do a days work.

The working GSD today is not used for the purpose of its origins, a working GSD one I associate with the police, and working trials, (which is not a job but a sport).

The GSD was bred to patrol boundaries All day every day, to protect livestock, hence the construction, how many of the working variety would be able to do this job , with the conformation of an upright dog with no slope to shoulder of back end.

Are you saying that you would prefer a show GSD to be tested in sheep herding tests, like the Border Collies have adopted?

Yes, I like a moderate GSD, rather than the working type we see in WT .

I love Elmo , and from my understanding to gain title of champion, he had to pass working tests as well as his show title.

P.S.... The GSD is not a sheep header, that was not his original job, unlike the BC, a BC was not developed to patrol boundaries, he was bred to work and heard sheep, they are not the same.

Love him, now there's a dog that you can imagine doing the dog he was bred for

Sorry don’t know how to do multiple quotes.
@Carol Quote It might help if they had to have a Working Trial qualification to become a full Champion.
To be allowed breeding rights in the SV system, all dogs must be entered in the studbook, and possess on the date of mating a training degree such as SchH 1-3, IP 1-3, HGH, or an equivalent acknowledged training degree, obtained under an SV judge [that applies to German-resident dogs]. The SchH or IP title must include a score of at least 80 points in phase C (protection).
SV Breed show rules http://www.videxgsd.com/PDF/SV Rules for Breeders and Breeding 2013.pdf
(Herdengebrauchshund In Germany and other places these skills are tested in utility dog trials also known as HGH (Herding Dog )


@Azz, Quote . Is that photo real Vee? It looks a bit photoshopped as the GSD looks like it is more Mastiff than GSD
They call them the "Bulk Mace Chinese German Shepherd"
China Holds First Shepherd Dog Festival
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/b/53a0a1c8-132c-430a-bee7-3b3b527c4a36
http://acidcow.com/pics/62309-giant-chinese-german-shepherd-12-pics.html
The bottom pic is an American Showline.
@ Jacquie Quote The working GSD today is not used for the purpose of its origins, a working GSD one I associate with the police, and working trials, (which is not a job but a sport).
As demand for German Shepherds as herding dogs diminished, Stephanitz encouraged their use by police and the military, to ensure its survival as a working breed, in the First World War alone, 48,000 were enlisted in the German army.
Quote how many of the working variety would be able to do this job , with the conformation of an upright dog with no slope to shoulder of back end.
Not all working lines are strait backed; here is a pure working line.

Yes Elmo is a favourite of mine also, I know he has gained VA1 SchH3 kkl1 Lbz
But not HGH.


I personally prefer the look of the modern GSD.


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At the bottom, on the right, of all message panes, such as I am typing on now, there are three signs. "Post Reply" in red, then in grey "Upload a File" and then "More Options."

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Thanks for that information Vee. I did realise that there were standards which applied in Germany before stock was passed fit for breeding, but welcome the details. My remark about the the desirability of show dogs having a working qualification before a full Ch. title could be granted, was meant to refer to the situation here in the UK. As I doubt that breeders here would accept the same controls as in Germany, dogs which won 3+ CC's would still be able to use the Sh. Ch. title, the unqualified Ch. title being reserved for those with a working qualification.
Also, I should have said a IPO or Working Trials qualification. You would know better than me where it would be possible to gain a herding qualifier. To the best of my knowledge there is only the Border Collie Club which organises one for show stock in this country. A project for one of the GSD Breed Clubs?

The GSDL of GB follows the SV rules But not sure if they do HGH, in UK.
http://www.gsdleague.co.uk/information/4576043214

Funnily enough, I was driving to work yesterday and saw a GSD with the more *modern* sloping back, and his movement wasn't that bad, but I simply can't believe it's better to breed for a sloping back to that extent, with the hocks so low, even if you can achieve a dog with sound movement, surely you will have many more with unsound conformation and movement?

It's not just about looking into the past appearance, but about retaining the characteristics of the breed, or, in some cases, where the breed standard was a bit patchy, perhaps the modern *type* is better than the historic version; I remember discussing this with a breeder of Chinese cresteds, where they were of the opinion that the breed has very much improved conformation wise.

Personally, with Labradors, I like the consistency with show bred dogs, but I don't like the over heavy substance in some show lines. I also don't like the inconsistency with some working bred lines, but there are some super working kennels who have been producing Labradors for many years, to the same type.

With flat coats, they have definitely improved in conformation, but recently they seem to be losing good conformation because the show ring encourages flashy movement over simple sound movement.

Foxhounds are pretty darned healthy overall, and little changed. And as far as the WCS freeloader goes, she's typical of the breed, and is a complete nutta, but that's to be expected!