To Crop or not to crop. That is the question. General Chat

Well seen as you see those of who are against cropping as 'liberal justice warriors' who just spout BS then there is no point in responding further to me and getting yourself all worked up about me finding what you believe in as selfish and cruel, after all you know everything there is to know.....

I'll continue to believe in scientific and veterinary evidence disproving the need to crop rather than a bunch of forum owners and their 'anecdotal' evidence and made up excuses

Good night!

Many vets will say the opposite as well. There is science in the logic of cropping as well. And once again dances around a spay and neuter not being cruel and selfish. There's tons of scientific fact behind cropping. As I have been stating this whole time I don't care if you like tails and floppy ears on cropped breeds that's fine but I'm entitled to my own opinion of what I think is best for my dog so keep your opinions off my dog.

Compulsive licking is related to pain or irritation in most cases especially when that licking is causing sores.

It's obvious people are passionate on both sides and that will probably never change.

I feel it is up to the owner. If they want a natural dog or a cropped dog so be it. I'm more concerned with overall responsible ownership vs if they decide on a minor, elective surgery.

I don't think the cruelty argument against it stands. It seems more people think it is wrong to alter or cut off parts rather than it actually doing them harm.
I also don't believe for the most part the "healthy ear" argument. At least I know it is unfounded to apply to all breeds. As I've seen a couple Pit owners try to use this argument, it prevents ear infections or they are prone to awful ear infections if left natural. I know for a fact that is untrue. I've owned a few cropped but the majority were uncropped. The natural ears did not suffer from ear infections with the exception of one female who also had cancer and a sinus type infection. From what I read and know when the immune system is under stress or otherwise compromised yeast infections or thrush can occur in humans. So I'm pretty sure being ill contributed to the yeast infection developing in her ears. The kicker is however that while she is uncropped, she has erect ears so they naturally stand. None of the floppy eared dogs have had ear infections.
So it serves no purpose in Pit Bulls and even historical it never served a purpose for their "job" unlike some other breeds.

It is usually done for looks. Not always however. Some working dogs are cropped for the job,that's true. Labs and Goldens are retrievers I'd assume they would have no need to be cropped, that's a totally different kind of work compared to cropped breeds.
There are uncropped breeds that work the same type of jobs but that doesn't mean none lose their ears. So choosing a different breed (who is usually left natural) or to leave a cropped breed natural doesn't mean they won't end up with ripped or torn off ear. Just an FYI.

Actually it is a common compulsive behavior. It happened once, and once I addressed the BEHAVIOR, it has never happened again. There was no pain or irritation on the sides of her legs, I can assure you of that. My dog is not cropped either, so don't try that argument that she was licking her paws because her ears hurt after a crop.

I don't have a problem with floppy ears I've been saying this all along, but it is a choice and I would like the freedom to have mine. It makes no sense that a crop ( a minor surgery that is health beneficial.) to be considered cruel. When a spay and neuter is completely acceptable, Circumcision is completely acceptable. My dog can't make choices, he's my dog and I have the right to have the say on anything he does or doesn't do. I pick his diet, I pick if he's crated, I pick how he's trained and I choose not to neuter. The cropped pups are non the wiser this whole unnecessary pain debate is getting old, ok then stop spaying and neutering since that's subjecting them to unnecessary pain and be a responsible owner not a lazy one and cut out VITAL organs that produce necessary hormones. Circumcision is not mutilation it's far healthier then leaving it there and far more hygienic. Cropping is not mutilation either it's a simple procedure, mutilation is a cutting out a female dogs part and loping off male genitals. That's inhumane and cruel.

You do, of course know why two new members from the US are ALL for ear cropping, even for little Minpins.

And now we have the baby circumcision. Well or course.

Gotta chop off the end of the baby boy's penis. Forget the fact that most American boys are circumcised because they think it looks "neater" I am an Ortohodox Jews and I KNOW why we circumcise out infant boys and it has NOTHING to do with looks.

You wait Azz - they will get everyone to bow down and agree to ear cropping and the next thing will try to get us all to agree that spiked collars are THE thing.

One mention of that, and one more mention of religious circumcision and that will be the last you will see of me.

These people are posting all over the internet. Trying to convince how wonderful ear cropping is.

The next thing on their agenda is how wonderful FGM [Femal Genital Mutilation] is.

How about checking up on who they are and what their aims are Azz?

Some of us have been doing and it is sickening, They start with dogs, get everyone to agree how wonderful cropping is, and guess where they end up.

Well this is probably the most insane post I've seen. I'm not making a religious argument about circumcision and we don't do it for " looks" but for hygienic and health purposes. Where are you connecting your dots ? Ear cropping is not nearly to the extreme of a spay and or neuter but that's "socially" expectable. You do realize that floppy ears are a deformity was bred into by MAN and that no other animal had "natural" floppy ears so you are all for 1.) a deformity. 2.) not correcting the problem. 3.) Mutilating female and male dogs genitals. Your argument makes so much sense so far doesn't it. Not for harming human genitals but gung-ho on ripping them out and off of dogs. All of my points have been valid on how, what, why and how not sever ear cropping is and you know what maybe it might get through to people who DARE to question why it's cruel. WHY IS IT CRUEL? If it is cruel then so is SPAYING AND NEUTERING. So what if we open a few minds ? At least someone is asking the question why instead of hopping on the band wagon " hating" something they know nothing about. I will continue to ask why.

And I'm sorry but you think those who are for cropping would be for "FGM" Hahahahaha You're are closer to that side of the spectrum for liking the destruction of a female dogs reproductive organs and all for neutering. Grouping a bunch of things together to make one thing sound bad is a bad plan. You're grasping at straws here because you have no real basis of the concept and are just throwing in fragmented ideas and trying to tie them in all together and making them connect in some weird way, WHEN THEY DONT.

I should have kept my mouth shut. Pity I did not.

OK, I give in. Cropped ears and tails docked to their anus for their looks are absolutely wonderful. And spaying in order to make sure of no unwanted puppies is really bad.

I feel very ashamed that I now had my puppy spayed.

I love the closed minded argument. Why is it closed minded to be against something and not closed minded to be for it? It's a tired argument that always crops (excuse the pun) up in this type of discussion.

To use hygiene and health as a reason for circumcision makes me wonder how on earth all of the uncircumcised men on the planet get through life with all of the pain they must continually suffer as they go.

The arguments don't stack up. Floppy eared dogs do not continually suffer with ear infections any more than their short eared counterparts. Uncircumcised men have no more health problems than circumcised ones.

Which breed has their tail docked to their anus ?

Sorry, but this whole post is just deluded. They don't feel pain? So why do veterinary practices often send pups home with pain meds? Of course they feel pain & discomfort afterwards, and to think otherwise is naive IMO.
Secondly, there are no known medical health benefits and I find it laughable to be honest you're still sticking to that. The Canadian Veterinary Journal actually says it better -http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2942042/ 'there is no scientific evidence to support the practice of ear cropping or tail docking as procedures that provide any health or welfare benefit for the dog.
Any non neccassary surgery is mutilation of some kind or another, including a spay and neuter as you keep liking to compare to. However, what you're glossing over in your argument is that spaying and neutering does have proven and evidence based health benefits, particularly in bitches. It's not in most situations a pointless procedure.

The facts are cropping IS done for aesthetic reasons alone. No one is going on at you for making that decision, and as you say it's common over there. I'd be more shocked and surprised had your Dobe had natural ears. But don't try to pull the wool over people's eyes as to what the surgery is actually all about and make claims to facts that are frankly untrue.

@Bulldogs4Life , I've seen some pretty good arguments for the cropping for ear infections, but most likely some of those could have been diet issues in the dog.
Bully breeds as a whole do seem to struggle with the issue a lot more than most breeds.
Hog dogs (Catch dogs) are another that there is a very real reason for ear cropping.

Happy Tail seems to also be a major issue for the Cane Corso, Dobies, and many other large and mastiff breeds. This though needs to be weighed against some of the major issues that can come about from docking. A slight mistake by the best vet can cause major issues if it is done wrong. Also some other breeds like the Dogo depend on having a tail for balance.

Boerboel I have seen some major issues caused by docking, and seen some major issues from happy tail. Have already spoken with the breeder I'll be getting mine from and I'll be getting a undocked pup.

As I stated before, the issues must be weighed and what someone is or is not comfortable with.

Laws must be right because there a law, is a very bad argument. The Dogo is banned in many countries because the original stock was used for fighting, so the dog that is a mix of 9 other breeds, must still be a fighting breed? Can almost see the law logic there.

This post doesn't even make sense. I don't know the 2 new posters and haven't tried to stalk them on the net but I can't draw the conclusion that cropping = FGM agenda.
Whether it is agreeable with you or not Min Pin are often cropped. I do believe it serves no purpose and is unnecessary. Only for looks in this case.

I don't know why most Americans do it, but the reason presented to do it was for hygiene and health. I am not saying that's correct, but that's why Drs were behind it and it's routine. I know if it's done later in life it's a bigger issue too, so maybe some mom's are worried about that. Regardless whether circumcision is done for looks or religious reasons, neither reason makes it less painful or any less a form of mutilation.

Are spike collars considered cruel in your opinion? My dogs where plain nylon, but I don't think they are bad. Some people want to make their dog look tough, that's their own problem but the collars don't hurt the dogs. With Am Bully you see some way over the top stuff as far as what they put on them. However, I'm more concerned with the deformities and over breeding.

I think to have an open mind one must be accepting of either side. At least that's my opinion. If you are only for cropping or only against cropping then you are closed minded. At least on that subject. It's not particularly bad to be closed minded on this type of issue though, as it's a personal opinion. I don't think we should force that down anyone's throats, but can share the difference in opinion in a respectful manner (like you have). A couple people have gotten heated but most are calm, so far.

I am fine if people crop. I'm fine if people don't crop. Likewise I'm fine when people spay and neuter and fine when they don't.

Until Drs stop saying that circumcision is healthier people will believe it. I think there can be some truth to it. The only 2 males I've known who had yeast infections were uncircumcised. Researching in medical articles with stats showed that yeast infection risk of circumcised men was pretty much nill but there is risk for uncircumcised men. I'd consider that a medical benefit, even if not major. The other argument was actually for women's health; less likely to have HPV with circumcised partner(s). I believe that was proven to be unfounded from what I last heard. A Dr can hypothesize all they want but they need actual medical data to back that up.
Not everyone in the USA has their boys circumcised either, as none of my brothers are. (Nor obviously the 2 guys who had yeast infections). It is just a more common practice here.

No, it isn't common practice to send home pain medication after a crop. I'm not arguing whether they feel pain or not (just that they dont get meds), they appear to be fine but we can't know that. My dog appeared to be fine after having her follicular tumor removed but they still gave a few days pain meds, she also had teeth pulled which was the bigger pain concern. She ripped her stitches out, even though she was crated and only taken out on lead for potty. She didn't seem to notice at all. Dogs can be stoic when in pain, it's part of their instinct. For something minor like an ear crop the endorphins probably help initially and then it's not much pain after that? My uncropped and cropped pup ran around playing just the same together. The real issue comes later, while it's not pain I believe the ears can itch when healing so they might try to scratch.

Cropping is not always done for "aesthetic reasons alone". In the case of the Doberman, it appears so but not for all breeds. Especially if you look in other countries. I doubt some old Turkish herdsman cares what his dog looks like.
I do believe there isn't much argument for the medical reasons / ear infections. That's a dead issue IMO. It's not proven in my breed at least.

Yup, that too (diet) there are other contributing factors to ear infections besides floppy ears. Be it diet, down immune system or a dog with allergies could be more likely to suffer them.

I don't know about "bully breeds overall", so I can only comment on APBT. As stated they don't tend to suffer ear infections. Therefore, cropping serves no purpose for them now and never did.
I don't know about American Bulldogs and ear issues, but it's very uncommon to see a cropped AB. I am unaware that ear infections plagued them. Staffordshire Bull Terriers are not cropped, but they are not that common hear. Perhaps UK members could comment on the ear infections being a problem or not.

I am not certain why cropping would be a real reason for catch dogs? As many are uncropped. The preference in AB seems to be uncropped, undocked. In APBT there are a ton of uncropped catch dogs, including those owned by old time doggers. I've seen some of them cropped, sure so that's still a personal preference, not a "need". Mostly the OFRN and larger dogs have been the ones with the crop jobs.
Happy tail can be a big problem for Great Danes and Pit Bulls too. I'm very interested to see your Boerboel! I'd be just fine with an natural Boerboel.
Is there any proof a Dogo needs their tail? The same has been said about APBT needing their tail for balance. While I think they should be left natural I'm not buying the balance argument as it doesn't add up.

I've also heard it's not always common practice for vet to prescribe pain meds after spay/neuter surgeries too which is just ludicrous if you ask me!

No operation is without some form of pain or another, and whether that's intense pain, or minor discomfort, the fact still remains the puppy does feel something. I know I keep quoting articles, but this explains it better - "5. Pain. For most, this is the critical issue in determining whether an activity constitutes cruelty. To this point, the majority of the discussion has focused on tail docking. Pain, however, is particularly relevant to the ear cropping discussion. First, with regard to tail docking: tail-docking advocate Professor Dr. R. Fritsch, Leader of the Clinic of Veterinary Surgeons at Justus-Lieberg University in Germany, maintains that at the age of two to five days, a puppy's nervous system is not fully developed and the conscious feeling of pain is unlikely at that stage. 38
Similarly, with regard to ear cropping, veterinarian Wendy Wallmer states that:
Individual dogs, like people, have different levels of pain tolerance. In general, boxers are very pain tolerant and most puppies return home from an ear crop will be eating normally and playing just as they did before surgery within hours of the procedure. Although the ears are decidedly uncomfortable if touched excessively or bumped, this discomfort usually subsides within a few days of the surgery. Some veterinarians will offer pain medication for those individuals who seem to have a low pain tolerance. The skill and experience of the surgeon also have an effect on the discomfort level after the procedure. 39
Advocates of ear cropping tend to downplay the amount of pain experienced by the dog. It is important, however, to note that the vast majority of American veterinary schools to not teach ear cropping or tail docking. 40 As a result, veterinarians must learn this procedure "on the job" which would lend itself to causing even more pain. Additionally, in large "puppy mills," breeders will simply cut puppies ears with scissors, and it is unlikely that this amateur procedure is conducted with an anesthetic or "post-operative" pain relievers. 41
Moreover, anti-docking and cropping supporters note that anatomically, all mammals (including humans and dogs) have the same neurotransmitters, receptors, and higher brain functions. 42 So while puppies may respond differently to pain, there can be no doubt that they feel pain similarly to humans. To this end, veterinarian Jean Hofve notes, "it is well documented in the human medical literature that newborns do feel pain, and neonatal pain management is taken seriously . . . 'even very prematurely born infants respond to pain.'" 43 Moreover, anatomical studies have shown that the number of nerve endings in a newborn puppy may equal, or even exceed that of adult dogs. 44 This means that a puppy will experience pain in amounts equal, or even greater to those experienced by the adult dog"

Dogs are very good at being stoic as you say, which is even more of a reason we shouldn't downplay pain that can and is experienced. My own little dog has just ruptured her cruciate ligaments with meniscus damage. When she actually injured herself after jumping from a hay bale she made not one murmur in response that would indicate she was in any pain. Yet knowing my dog I knew she was in pain, but just dealing with it inwardly ( she became withdrawn and quiet ). Even the vets were surprised when they found out the extent of her injuries as they said she hid her pain well. Of course, the argument is then about whether we should put our dogs through unnecessary procedures just because we can and just because our dogs seem to cope well afterwards. Doesn't make it any less right, although can go along way in easing our own guilts and doubts

As for whether cropping is done for aesthetic reasons alone I'd hasten a guess that in this day & age with dogs not performing or being required for the jobs they once were, that it is a purely cosmetic procedure.

Again, no one is criticizing anyone for any decision they have made, but lets not sugar coat anything. I appreciate you being able to discuss it rationally though @Bulldogs4Life.

Circumcision is completely acceptable in civilized societies. I live in a civilized society and that is the norm. It's healthier and far more hygentic, why do you think it's the acceptable norm. Once again dancing around spays and neuters, they are sent home with meds as well ! So there's another flaw in your argument. That's acceptable for them to come home with meds ? It's acceptable to take organs out and off of a dog ? Why is ear cropping cruel? Can anyone answer these questions? No and you want to know why cuz it would totally take the wind out the argument that cropping is cruel. Cropping is not cruel spays and neuters are cruel if crops are cruel. My dog was sent home with antibiotics big whoop !! Hahahaha what!!!!! " circumcised for looks". What are you talking about no it's not for looks it's for health. Most little boys don't want yeast infections, and other things that come along with not cleaning themselves properly. Sorry you are extremely mistaken on that part it's not for looks it's for health 100%. Further more, agenda... You already bought into one.

Well you learn something new every day, I did not know that most American men have been circumcised ....

From my understanding of circumcision is its a religious thing, has or had nothing to do with health, it's a religious rite for Jews / Muslims

The health argument ,like cropping has been added on to justify the procedure ..

Going back to cropping , I've said it before I am neither for or against it, culturally we here n the uk are not used to it, we don't have to give it consideration , in the US it's different, it's common and like in any aspect of life if you are a fan of something and others are not then call you out on it, your going to get defensive .

My view is there are far worse things that can happen to dog in the name of cruelty than cropping a pups ears under anaesthetic , I respect a NO vote and to be honest don't condemn a YES yes vote.

I love the look on some breeds, but that's about as far as I would go.