To Crop or not to crop. That is the question. General Chat

Cropping and docking is not purely eye candy. I'm not going to get into a drawn out argument, simply agree to disagree. We each have our own opinions. I cannot believe your puppy did not have any pain meds after a spay. That is a very invasive surgery! And regardless of if she feels up to running and playing, it's wise to limit it so she doesn't hurt her incision or stitches. That's like a woman going back to work doing intensive labor after a hysterectomy. I've had minimally invasive abdominal surgery and was off work for 2 weeks and on pain medication. I couldn't imagine my poor dog getting major surgery, invasive surgery and NOT giving her pain meds and limiting her activity. just because I felt up to doing laundry after surgery didn't mean it was ok for me to. Ear cropping and docking is minimally invasive and done at a young enough age that it is virtually painless and the dog has no recollection of it being done. Are you against cropping sheep's tails as well? How many of you knew sheep are born with long tails?

So in browsing the forums getting myself familiar and aquainted and reading threads that pique my interest, I saw your puppy has some sores on her belly after the spay... Though I don't know much about that, you do realize the cream you received, is for pain. Lidocaine is an analgesic which helps to numb pain. So while perhaps you didn't realize that your pup had pain medication, she did.

Yes and with a crop most pups don't need pain meds or lidocaine.

And when done by a reputable vet, the only "complication" that arises from a crop is that the ears don't stand the way they should... and even then, that is on the owner for not posting correctly or for as long as they should. I've seen far too many complications after a spay or neuter, both medical and behavioral.

No. She had two tiny pimples which developed AFTER her three little staples were removed. The incision was not much more than one centimetre long.

She THEN was given some cream which included 2% Lidocaine and yes, I do know what Lidocaine is. But that was a few weeks after the spaying and the cream was a compounded one, mainly an antibiotic for the spots, not for pain. And I am fully aware of what Lidocaine is. Medical studies are very useful, even decades later.

None of my Dobermans had crop ears or docked tails, I loved the way their ears would flop about when they were running.

Also if you are thinking of showing your dog, they will be over looked now in UK if they have cropped ears/docked tails [unless tails docked on medical grounds] I also been informed by my brother who lives in America that Cropping dog ears is getting more & more unpopular & USA vets are advising against having dogs ears crop.

I can only say for the US, and specifically where I am, that is untrue. Though the breed isn't as popular as it used to be in general, you see far more cropped and docked here than you do not cropped and/or docked. My girl is not cropped as she was borderline too old when we got her, and I hear all the time either that she's a skinny rottie or she doesn't look right as a dobie with floppy ears. That's just specifically here though and my personal experience.

Ya because of Animal rights activist that don't have a clue. If they rule that out they should rule out circumcisions to young boys as well. I personally don't want my dogs to have floppy ears and tails. The cropped and docked look is iconic to the Doberman. I don't want it to be just another hound looking dog. We have enough of those. I'm glad you like ears and tails so keep them but I'd rather have my dogs ears standing as that is the natural way a canines ear should be. The wail well it's docked at 3 days old not like they notice or care. It's also sad that the standard has changed honestly Cropped and Docked should be allowed to compete. When it was reversed uncropped and docked still got too... Double standard much. I still have done why does his ears and tail make him unfit ? He's still conformationally sound with a great temper.

If you are going to use the 'natural' argument, then surely you have to rule out tail docking because it is natural for a full tail.

It would appear that the AVMA also opposes the procedure purely for cosmetic reasons

https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Pages/Ear-Cropping-and-Tail-Docking-of-Dogs.aspx

Yes but it's done for a working capable dog. My boy is in schutzhund and a tail is not ideal for a protection trained dog. It's done at an age where they have no memory of it. Lol and sorry there is absolutely nothing cuter then his nubber.

no it's not purely cosmetic I can give multiple sources. The one you probably found is more then likely a Animal rights written and I don't buy into the bs.

Here's some facts about the health benefits to crops and docks.
http://www.abouttimecanecorso.com/CropDock.html

It's the AMVA site.

Europe, Canada and others have already banned the procedure. They can't all be animal rights activists surely.

@Silas It is a personal choice that you will have to make yourself. I like the cropped on certain dogs/breeds but not on others. Cropping isn't a big deal for the dog but there is Allah's anesthesia risk to consider.

Sounds like I've heard this before. ..oh yeah during BSL debates. Why would a country ban Pit Bulls unless they really were dangerous and a risk to public safety? Just because something becomes law somewhere doesn't always mean the law makers are correct.

My female was spayed one month prior. October 22nd. I know some people decline pain meds because they don't want to pay for them when the vet gives the option, but I've never heard of the vet not even offering.This is what she was sent home with. They were tabs of beef flavored chewable pain killer.


This was in addition to the pain killer (injection) she was given while at the vet.

So having a major surgery, uterus removed, ovaries, ect a dog will be fine and won't be in pain? A minor procedure like ear cropping, the dog will surely be fine and dancing around.

An unnecessary procedure is an unnecessary procedure. The spaying is done as a convenience to the owner. It is also very unnatural. Then again so is owning a dog at all. I have intentionally bred dogs don't get me wrong, but I don't produced unwanted litters. The vast majority of dogs in shelters are due to bybs and mills and then accident yes, which is 99% of the time so called &accident& is preventable. The reason why most unwanted litters happen is due to irresponsible and careless ownership. If we removed all the other unnecessary litters from existence the number of accidents would be next to nothing. The shelters would surely be empty. In some countries they don't s/n routinely but they don't have the unwanted litter issue. Dogs simply being intact doesn't fill the shelters, irresponsible owners and breeders do.

I don't know that they were trying to threaten you, it was in response to what you said. I don't feel that you actually threatened them either. Your post did state however that if anyone suggested you should crop your dog's ears you'd crop their ears. You threatened violence against "anyone" and they took it upon themselves to insert themselves into it. All they were stating is in discussing of your dog face to face you wouldn't consider violence, like you said you would.

Some people think I should have cropped my Cane Corso's ears, that's their opinion. My dog, my personal choice not to. I don't get worked up about it.

In USA not true at all. Some vets might disagree with it or simply haven't bothered to go through class for it. It isn't a national thing, it's an individual vet thing. Some don't even do AI. Some will do AI but not collect for shipping or freezing. Yeah makes sense right...not.
Other vets who claim to be "against" it over charge for it. They say the astronomical price is to &discourage& people but they gladly take the money and do the sugery. So they can't be all that against it.

I am enjoying this discussion, and I know neither side is going to budge from their position as the underlying ideas are so culturally embedded.
I've checked, and ear cropping has been banned in the UK since 1899. Therefore, very few people here could have ever seen a legally cropped dog. The KC show entry form asks for the exhibitor to certify that any alteration to the dog's conformation has been notified to the KC - in which case permission to show would have been refused. @Jackie This is a good point, it may well be possible for a cropped dog to gain admission to a KC show as a spectator dog. IMO, as soon as this does happen there will be a rule change!
@Chris B does have a valid point. Natural must mean with a full tail. It is illogical to claim the reason for the erect ear as being natural, and dock the other end. Also, what is the natural ear carriage of a Spaniel - or a scenthound? Dog breeds have been too diverse for too long for the natural argument to apply.
In the US you are well used to seeing dogs presented in this way. We had the same adjustment to make when docking was banned in 2007. There is a significant number of, mainly gundog, enthusiasts who will always quote the possibility of tail injuries to claim exclusion from the act, but I have seen more Gt. Danes with tail injuries, and they are never docked. I am also a member of the Bouvier Club of GB, and must admit that the variety of tail carriages has taken a bit of getting used to!
@MischasMomma Your girl is beautiful, and anyone who compares her to a skinny Rottie has NO knowledge of dogs. How could you mistake a classic blunt wedge, and that elegant Dobermann outline for a Rottie.
I think it is great that we can have an honest exchange of views like this, without coming to virtual blows. What a pity that our world leaders can not learn from our example. Happy New Year folks.

Uh ya they can it only takes a few loud mouths for the masses to follow.

Yes I understand that tails are natural and some dogs are better suited for them. Personally I'd rather not have to risk "happy tail." And see nothing wrong with docking. I also don't care if others choose to keep ears and tails but don't push the opinion on what I want for my dog as I am not do that to " natural." dogs. My point in this is that the cruelty argument is invalid and ridiculous.

Thank you @CaroleC I wasn't sure if perhaps I was being biased in thinking they were ignorant of dog breeds by comparing her to a rottie! Likely they are just not used to dobermans in general, let alone ones with floppy ears. As I mentioned it is very rare around here to not be cropped and the only non docked dobes I have ever seen was at the DPCA Nationals- there were 2 and both imported from Germany. When we were looking for Mischa there was a small handful of breeders who offered undocked pups, however your deposit was the full amount of the puppy and non refundable (as opposed to about 1/5 of the full cost and fully refundable up until the pups were 8weeks old) if you changed your mind. That's how undersirable an undocked dobe is in the US.