Pitfalls of removing a puppy early from its mother Discussions

I have to say, my most well trained girl who has a very close bond with me came to me at 14 weeks of age, from a good breeder who socialised pups well. My home bred pup, who I socialised well and trained from an early age, isn't as biddable, but her breeding isn't the same, she has much more show breeding. So really, it's not just down to the breeder, but the breeding.

I agree it isn't true at all of hand rearing. Some people like to believe certain things will equal a stronger bond. Whether that's hand raising, getting a puppy very young, rescuing a dog, ect.

I hand raised a litter from birth with round the click feedings, stimulation to pee/poo and lots of handling. I have no extra special or extra strong bond and they sure did not turn out to be obedience whizzes. Hand raising didn't trump their genetics at all.

The newest addition came around 8 weeks. He caught on very quick to commands, very pleasing to me. He is very high energy pup to boot but it's good to know he can focus, learn with few repetitions and is biddable.

So their first time out wasn't at 12 weeks.......
I'm not seeing how that is special strong bond either.

For me I expect as the puppy owner to be the one to crate train and train them their new name of my choosing.
They should be getting used to that stuff earlier, especially noises I'd think.

All the good breeders I know get puppies used to general house hold noises, crates, children, and things like brollies, hats etc. I took the time to start getting pups used to their pet name, and recall whistle just to help the new puppy owners as much as possible, as you say, if you get them used to it as early as possible ie from when they're mobile, then it's giving them the best chance possible. I also took them in the car for a couple of trips, and out in the garden to run around and get used to people passing by the garden and stopping to say hello. That's how I prefer my pups to be raised and how all the pups I've bought in have been raised pretty much.

I think that's great, I'm in agreement with you. I'm only saying I don't expect to get a crate trained pup. I have given my own pups some time in crate, especially if they will be flying or riding in one in vehicle to their new home you don't want it to be stressful.
I've no problem calling them their new name but not all owners have one picked out.
Most my pups I picked their name after I brought them home too.

I don't think the name thing matters much tbh Tucson was called destiny by her breeder and came home at 16 weeks and was coming to her new name within a day, Phoenix came at 10 weeks was previously known as Rita lol but again within a day came running to her new name. Teddy came home at 7 months was previously Sammie but I thought that was girly so changed it to Teddy as he's very like a Teddy bear, within the day he was answering to it. Rio was called Rio while still with her breeder but it was our choice of name, obviously answered to it immediately. Syd was named after he came home but picked it up straight away. Diesel was already Diesel and Frankie was already Frankie, Milan was 8 months when she came home and previously known as Miel, within the day she was glued to my side and answering to her new name. I think it's great if Breeders can manage to crate train it makes the first few days at home so much easier but most will have multiple pups so if they are crate trained it's not usually alone due to space etc. My Pugs were all crate trained as individuals when they arrived but Tucson has a hissy fit and a touch of the amateur dramatics should you put her in one. The other two love their crates.

For those of you who who did not understand why I brought Tikva home - it was a case of "take her or else". I have a tiny puppy who is weaned and mostly on raw food now, and although still very tiny she has gained weight and is now approx 100g.

She plays, she rushes around like a whirlwind, is a very happy and very sturdy little pup.

When she is tired during the day she goes into her bed in the salon. At night she sleeps in her crate in my bedroom..

I had no choice. I did not bring her home because of selfishness. There was no way I wanted to hand rear another puppy.

The owner of the bitch was the "supposed" girlfriend of the owner of the land. She vanished and the eight puppies were left.

I rescued one - tiny Tikva - and I have no idea what happened to the other puppies. All I know is that I have a tiny puppy who is doing well and gaining strength and who is doing well.

If anyone wants to deny that fact then I apologise for my so far attempts to rescue this pup.

Malka, I think you have a mistype in one of your posts. Tikva must be more than 100gms as you told us in your Wednesday update that she had gained almost 200gms.

Well we've been looking after the tiniest scrap of a kitten who wasn't growing and he's now fit enough to go to his new home and weighs in at 500grms and he's really tiny.

Sorry - she was originally 600g when I first weighed her, then 800g and this morning she was just under 1000g. She is difficult to weigh as she tries to climb out of the bowl I put on the scales so I have no idea what she really weighs. Just that she is doing well, gaining weight, and is a happy little soul, but much smaller than her weight implies.

She is a very tiny but very happy little puppy.

She looks very healthy and happy bless her!

When I brought 6 week old Chloe home she only weighed 500gr and I could hold her in the palm of one hand, and I've got small hands. Even at 12 weeks old she didn't weigh much more than 1 kilo and looked positively minute next to 8 week old M'boi who weighed 5 kilos.

It's all comparative ... to me having had a very tiny puppy, Tikva doesn't look particularly tiny .. at least from her photos. Keep up the good work ... mother and child are doing splendidly

Rightly or wrongly
There is never going to be correct answer for when a puppy is removed from the bitch early.
Puppy farmers & BYB's always advertise 5 week old puppies as 7 weeks old, Sometimes they are only 4 & 1/2 weeks old.
Would anyone of you walk away from a young puppy if you knew it would be killed or dumped before it was 7 weeks old, Malka didn't & now she has a thriving little whirlpool, who is getting stronger & bigger each day, just look at the very first photo put up & last one to see how much Tikva has grown over the last couple of weeks.
Malka took Tikva early yes but the pup is alive & well, so there is no rightly or wrongly answer.

Of cause there is a correct answer to this,lets not get to blinkered with this because one of our members took a pup to young from the litter and gets nothing but pats on the back for doing so,

Two wrongs don`t make a right , and removing pups to young from a litter is not the correct way to rear a litter of pups, using the argument that byb and pf do it to justify this is baffling to say the least, and if you really believe that there is no "correct answer to removing pups, then I would question your judgment.

Are you really saying its OK to take pups from their mum at 2/3/4/5 weeks of age, just because !!

Lets be honest here, we don`t know either way whether these pups were/are in danger of being dumped, the story changed to many times from it being a good home to they are all going to die because they have been abandoned.

Sometimes you have to hand rear a litter , mum dies, they are dumped , she rejects them, of cause this can happen and you have to step up,

But this bitch seemed to manage very well for the first 3, 1/2 weeks rearing her litter, they looked healthy and well fed (Malka made this clear in her first post ) they were looked after.......... but suddenly after Malka decided to bring pup home, everything changed. The pup was thriving when it was with its dam, and continued to thrive with Malka, its not because she saved it .

Would I walk away from a puppy I was not happy with the situation, yes I probably would, I don`t support BYB or PF, you may not like that but you asked.

the pup looks to be thriving, it had a good start to its life, shame it could not have just had a couple more weeks with its siblings and dam.

Jackie, I did not choose to take this puppy - the owner of the bitch, the so-called "girlfriend" of the owner of the Moshav plot of land appeared, decided that Moshav life was not for her, and boogered offf, wanting the dam with her.

What did you expect me to do?

The man who owns the Moshav plot is not a byb or a pf - he had the misfortune to "find" a Russian girlfriend who owned a standard dachshund. The dam got pregnant, the "girlfriend" boogered off, and there were eight tiny puppies stuck in a small box, whose dam had been removed from them, waiting for her owner to collect her.

It was "take the puppy now or else". Or else what? Have her and her siblings dumped as Ziva was?

No, I did not want a pup I would have to wean - hand-reared and weaned too many puppies in the past, but Tikva is thriving, she is happy, and I am feeding her a darn sight better than most people would.

I did not decided to bring the puppy home when I did. It was "take her now".

The whole story about the Russian girlfriend is still a mystery which nobody seems to know anything about. The man does not live on this Moshav but one nearby, and nobody knows anything about a Russian girlfriend.

All I know is that I have one puppy from the litter who is happy, healthy, gaining weight, and is now half on raw food. Whether I was correct or not, I have a healthy puppy who might very well not be alive had I not brought her home when I was told to go and collect her.

What did you expect me to do? Say sorry but I cannot hand-rear/wean a puppy that was stuck in a small box with seven other unwanted puppies?

Could you walk away from such a situation?

How do you know that's what BYB's do? You do seem to know of all the worst breeder's/advertisements/rescues/ whatever.

And yes there is a right or wrong answer. I find it very concerning that so called dog owners/enthusiast's are so dismissive of removing a puppy early from it's mother and then actually go on to say 'it doesn't matter' and there is no wrong or right answer.

I agree totally, I'm astounded to read that someone who supposably is experienced in digs, would actually suggest there is no right time to remove pups from their mum, and say " it doesn't matter" !!

Every responsible breeder worth their salt would vehemently disagree with such a statement,

Tina how can you say there is never going to be correct answer when you yourself said in an earlier post quote (Firstly 8 weeks is to young for pup to be taken away from mum, any good license breeder won't let pups go before they are 11-12 weeks old.)

(Guess 9-10 weeks is ok but I won't take a puppy at 8 weeks old, as all my pups were still feeding of Skye (mum) until they were 10 weeks old, they were eating solids but at same time feeding off mum, specially at night.) http://www.forum.breedia.com/threads/puppy-check-list.14739/

@GsdSlave you forget I kept the pups & even today Skye sleeps with her hooligans.
Yes I would like to see all puppies stay with their mum until they are over 8 weeks old, but there are times like Malka little pup Tikva that needs to be removed early & hand reared in order for the pup to survive.

@Jackie lets say your after another dog & you go through all the right channels, you find a breeder that your happy with & put your name down for when the pups are born, the breeder then rings you up saying that their dam as had 6 puppies & that you can go view them when their eyes are open roughly around 3 weeks old, then after 3 weeks you go & look at the puppies you choose one you like, you put a non returnable deposit, but just 2 days later the breeder phones you back saying there's been a family emergency & if you want the puppy you will have to go fetch the puppy straight away.

Do you say no its too early for the puppy to leave its mum (knowing you not get your deposit back)
Or do you go fetch the puppy & hand rear the pup.

Then a few weeks later you find out there was no emergency at all, the breeder just wanted her bitch to be milk free & in tip top condition for a up & coming CC Dog show.
This happens a lot some breeders will leave the pups till they are 5 weeks before claiming an emergency when in fact they are just allowing their bitches milk to dry up & for them to get their bitch back in training for the so called CC dog show.

Its very easy to say you would just walk away but in truth after holding the pups choosing a pup so on its not as easy as one thinks just to walk away.

That's really common there? I find that hard to believe, maybe you know some of the worse breeders in all aspects.
Here that's not a practice of show breeders and I don't see a breeder pulling that on me since they have to be 8 weeks to transport. Even so it'd ruin their reputation anyway if they are continually lying to get rid of pups early it'd come out. People would catch on.

If I found myself in that situation I would put my running shoes on, and RUN away.