[QUOTE="manydogz, post: 195482, member: 5966" ]Those of you who have given Malka such a hard time need to keep rereading Trouble's post until you gain some understanding! have been forced to hand rear so many pups I've lost count. Getting through the first year can be hard medically but emotionally you usually have a very normal dog. I have seen some years later and never got a bad report from the owner. Only thanks for saving their dog. Maybe you forget that Malka is not new to the dog world. Things changed and she did what had to be done to save one puppy. It is not her responsibility to care for all the forgotten dogs in the country she is in which is not a dog friendly place to be. Do you care for all the dogs where you live? And to comment about her age is a very low blow. I'm almost 66 and disabled. I suppose you'll have something to say about that, too, as I often take in rescues, hand raise when necessary and have seven dogs and six cats of my own. Oh, I'll take care of injured forest animals, too. And I have hand reared a variety of small forest animals and birds when necessary. I have no time or desire to bother with the lot of you.[/QUOTE] Trouble made some very good points regarding hand rear pups, and I agree with what she has said, but you seem to be forgetting one crucial point here, malka has not hand reared this pup, she took it from a dam that was rearing them perfectly well on her own....malka stated this fact herself, this was not a litter where they needed to be hand reared, but a litter where the dam vas doing perfectly fine on her own. But as people keep saying what's done is done, does not make it right though. P.s....can't turn the underline off ???
@ manydogz .....I never mentioned malka's age disability or anything personal, so you need to be more specific on who you are calling out... My point was directed only one way to the removing of a pup to young from a litter, nothing else, it is something which needed to be pointed out, because it seems most folk here seem to think what she did is ok, don't go moving the goal posts to include genuine reasons for hand rearing, yes it has to be done sometimes, and I commend those who do it, but this is not such a case....the dam was rearing this pup perfectly fine on her own. Let's not forget malka was very happy with the breeder when she went to see them, it is only after she has been questioned that the breeder turned into someone who is going to dump all the pups and allow them to die, so she had to take one away , but different from her first visit when she said she was going to take on away as soon as she could....she did what she intended to do, only now it's she had to otherwise the pup would die.
Sorry but I pressed the wrong button! Several times since living in the village someone with an unwanted litter has tried to fob me off with a puppy or a kitten that's too young to leave its mum. If I'd taken them all, or even one or two from every litter, I'd have a house full by now! Unfortunately not every country in the world is a "Nation of Dog Lovers". What happens is that people either can't be bothered or can't afford to have a dog spayed and when she gives birth can't wait to dispose of the puppies by whatever means ... usually by drowning! Last year a neighbour's dog gave birth to 4 puppies and I was asked if I would take one, but refused in the full knowledge of what it's fate would be. At 3 months old the puppies and mother were shot!
I did NOT see the breeder. I saw the man who owns the house and two of his 20-ish sons but the BREEDER is, or was, his Russian "girlfriend" who apparently brought Sonia, the Doxie, with her from Russia. And is now nowhere to be seen. I did NOT see her. I saw her 50 something supposed "boyfriend". And his "girlfriend" has apparently boogered off. I was quite prepared to wait another two weeks to bring Tikva home, but the dam did not want to feed her puppies any more. I have no idea what has happened to the other puppies but I have the satisfaction that I have rescued one. Did you want me to take them all?
I'm not suggesting Malka take them all. I just find it a little...odd, that the concern was for only one puppy. The others will be dumped and I suppose that's just that then!
What do you not understand? I did NOT see the breeder. I saw her 50 plus year old "boyfriend". I have saved one puppy - is that not enough for you? The owner of the dam was a Russian girl who came over as the "girlfriend" of the man I saw - dumped her pregnant bitch with him and has f*********ed off. I have saved ONE puppy. And am feeding her on expensive milk substitute every two hours, day and night. WOULD YOU DO THAT?? Shocking, disgusting is it not? To save one puppy? Maybe you thought that all the money I spent on keeping my beloved Pereg alive was also shocking and disgusting. I have saved one puppy. HOW MANY HAVE YOU SAVED
The way I've read the posts, it isn't a question of "saving" one puppy, it's about whether the puppy should have been/needed to be removed from Mum and siblings at that age in the first place and sensible reasons have been given as to why it is not ideal to do so.
Malka, it does not matter whether you saw the breeder or her boyfriend, you were happy with the FAMILY and HOW they were rearing the pups.
Exactly, its not about saving one pup, its about the fact , that taking a pup from a litter so young is not good practice, this is not about a litter that needed to be hand reared, or were being dumped or euthanize, none of those issues were relevant in the beginning, it was stated from the start that this was the intention to remove a pup as soon as!!
I think the pups are used to being handled, which is very good So they were hardly ignored by the breeder/Boyfriend/whoever. And as I said, the picture of mum with pups looks like a normal, attentive, mother. I just hope - and Tikva means hope - that she will be with me as soon as is possible That implies that you were hoping they'd hand the puppy over ASAP. Whether the reasons you stated are true or not, I'm not so sure. But either way you sounded determined to bring her home early regardless of the circumstances. And as Lucky Star said, this isn't about rescuing a puppy that was in desperate need of rescuing. Nothing in your earlier posts suggested the litter was abandoned/suffering/or otherwise in trouble. You said you was happy with how healthy the mum was, and the pups were doing well. That, to me, does not warrant removing a puppy so early. But that really is the last I'll say on the subject now. Hopefully you won't have any issues associated with her early removal and she'll go on to live a long and happy life. Shame about the other pups chances mind you
My previous post was addressed to EVERYONE who were giving Malka a hard time. Not to any one person. Her age was mentioned by one of you. I do not have the inclination to look back and find who said what which is why I said everyone in the first place. At first Malka thought the situation was good. She then found out different. Is that too simple for some of you to see? Malka has done what is the right thing to do in this situation and she does not have to explain herself to any of you. I think she has been posting here for a long time in the mistaken belief that many of you who appear give a care in reality do not. Before a bunch of you get insulted I said many of you not all of you! This is all I will say on this matter, you need not comment to me as I doubt if I will be back to read it!
What did she find differently ? The only difference she mentioned was the bitch was leaving the whelping box, This is normal behaviour when pups are around this age, they can spend long periods away from their babies , that does not warrant removing pup from the litter. Some of us, are concerned about the fact a 3 1/2 week old pup was taken from a litter, some of you are not, . No she does not have to explain anything to anyone, that won't stop others voicing concerns. The only way to make sure you don't want opinions on the Internet, is not to post your business worldwide !
Without a doubt in an ideal world a pup would stay with it's siblings and Dam until 7 weeks of age, that's not always possible for a multitude of reasons. With the pups we hand reared the dam had died because the breeder didn't seek veterinary assistance and had no clue about breeding and raising pups, cos anyone can do it right? Well I guess anyone can do it, I'd never done it before but I applied myself and it was hard work. The breeder made no attempt to hand rear the pups, it was easier to dump them on BDH, to be fair it would have been hard there were 6 pups in the litter but if that was my dog I would have managed, Jeez I managed 3 and had no relationship with the dog. So firstly and most importantly there has to be the will to do right by the pups, we had the support of BDH including all vet care, food, puppy pads, bedding etc. I supplied the crate, the environment the substitute mum, the socialisation, the time, the heat, the washing facilities etc and trust me it was hard. Secondly you need to know what to do and if you don't you need to be guided and accept that guidance. Thank gawd I didn't also have the responsibility for homing the pups. Malka's pup is much older, eating solids, there's just the one and she's raised young pups before. She's prepared for the work involved, she'll probably welcome the effort required. I know pups removed from their siblings and dam too soon can have issues but this pup has Malka an experienced owner and breeder and will also live a life totally different from my dogs or yours. She'll never be out of Malka's sight after the loss of the previous pup. She won't be running free in the woods etc as running free is too damn dangerous for a small dog there. I think the pup has a better chance to thrive with Malka than with the breeder so it is what it is, there is no point pulling faces about the fate of the other dogs, they are the responsibility of the breeder not Malka.
You need to fall all the way back. You said "the lot of you" which was rude, condescending, and absolutely uncalled for. I didn't attack Malka. If you're going to rant and be dramatic, then you need to "have the inclination" to go back and look instead of grouping everyone together. I agree with the posters that said this wasn't a good idea, but what's done is done and I was prepared to support Malka. In any case, how is being dramatic and saying people don't care (again without specifying who you meant) helpful? It's as worthless as ranting at Malka at this point. They are posting because they DO care, and it's an important issue. Okay PERHAPS they don't care about Malka, but they DO care about dogs and their welfare, which is the issue at hand. No offense, but you IMO are making the situation worse by taking comments aimed at Malka personally, and then grouping people together when only a select few made the comments. Being flippant and refusing to acknowledge or apologize for this isn't so great, either.
Malka some members here seems to forget you live in a war torn country that dogs don't live indoors (accept yours) but on the street, they are not neutered or ever will be, each time a bitch comes into season they will end up being mated by one or more dogs that roam the streets, that bitch will end up having puppies that no one wants & the puppies will end up being dumped or even killed before they reach 7 weeks old, all one as to do is read about your previous puppy Ziva who was dumped by the breeder when you were in hospital, it also seems that these members are not reading any positive posts about how you have saved Tikva from being either dumped or killed, they are only reading the negative posts. I for one can't wait to see more photo's of Tikva
I am saddened to see us falling out like this, as Breedia has been such a friendly and supportive forum. I think that I was the first person to post that I thought Tikva should be allowed a little more time with her dam and siblings, for all the reasons that have been stated, but it was Malka's puppy, and the decision to remove it was her call. Once that choice had been made, I think we should accept the situation as it is now, and welcome this puppy to our doggy band. By all means make it plain to any casual readers of this thread, that this is not what we believe to be an ideal start in life, but let us try to give Malka, who has coped with war, illness and the loss of two dogs, a little more support.
Tikva has been with me since Friday morning - she sleeps through the night, pees and poos on a puppy pad in the salon [but not in her crate]. She drinks puppy milk substitute from a bottle but also eats cottage cheese and bio yoghurt from a spoon. She is also eating finely cut up meat. Yes she wants to be with me all the time [unless she goes wandering round the bungalow then shrieks to be rescued when she does not know where she is] but she is still alive. She is not in a tiny box she could not get out of, she can wander around as she wants. And she is still alive. Something that could not be guaranteed had I not brought her home. The owner of the house from where she came, NOT her breeder who has apparently disappeared - was supposedly his Russian "girlfriend", could never have hand-reared her. I have no idea what has happened to the other seven puppies but I have saved one, and hopefully she will continue to thrive.
