Nervous Malinois Questions

Hi all, ok here goes........ my now 3 year old male 'show line' malinois has always been very nervous, odd behaviour and almost autistic tendancies are completely normal to him, taken him 2 years to walk on his own into our porch as I think he is claustrophbic, I kid you not. Had him from 8 weeks, both parents were friendly but aloof and puppies nervous in the litter, but as lots of the relatives did agilty, show obedience etc I honestly thought with lots of socialisation we would be ok....... So now 3 years later, lots of positive reinforced training, loads of interaction, I still have a rather screwed up boy. Hindsight is a wonderful thing lol. Anyway love him to bits, he is going no where, but would love to hear from other people with similar experiences and how things have worked out. I have not had him castrated as he needs all the testosterone he can get. He is a lovely boy, nice temperament and a brilliant pet, but not the agility mad mali I had hope for!! if he gets stressed, he refuses to recall, I have kept him on a 15foot line for months so i can reward the recall, but in 12 months little improvement. He is also crated when I am out and I pretty much try to make him 'earn' everything eg little tricks like hand targets for cheese etc. I am not posting this for a 'show line' v 'working' bashing, thats been done before, I genuinely need advice from people who understand what problems i have before I give up. oh also no toy or food drive............

I highly suggest neutering him if you are having problems with recall...I'm not sure what you mean by him needing "all the testosterone he can get". He sounds like a low confidence dog with anxiety issues. Many people find neutered dogs are easier to train than their intact counterparts. If you aren't planning on breeding him, I would consider it! If you remove the "sex drive" you may find he HAS a food or toy drive after all

oh ok, i have had alot of people tell me that because he is a nervous dog, that having him castrated may make him worse....... I would definately never breed from him!
'low confidence with anxiety issues' describes him well. I have thought about having the chemical castration to see how it effects him........ heard alot of mixed reviews about it.

It is far more likely to reduce his anxiety if you castrate him. Since he is over the age of 2, his testosterone has already peaked and leveled off (so you have seen-he is still a nervous dog on full testosterone!) and he already received any physical development boost from the hormones (for agility), so there's really no reason to keep him intact. As a former vet tech, chemical castration is a newer procedure I am not familiar with, but I can assure you, even the "traditional" method is a quite simple and not all that invasive (as much as it makes some humans cringe).

As for the training, a platform can help with both confidence and as you get further into agility, here's a link!

http://teamunruly.com/?p=5379

Thank you Honey for your pro active replies to my post. I agree with what you say regarding him having full testosterone but still nervous, that is what I thought! he cant be any worse lol. I will look at that link

I obviously have little experience with the Belgians compared to most folks, but have had our girl and she will be turning 2 in the next few months.

She was raised as a family dog with our Dalmatian, so she has never been caged. She is in the house when we are and outside when we are in the yard. She has also been raised around people and small children, never skittish and loves everyone after she sees they are cool with us.

I don't know your intentions on training, but he may be better suited as a family dog if he has been socialized...does he tend to bite or has been secluded from kids and people?

Again limited experience, but my Belgian is the best family dog I could ask for, except maybe her son with the Dalmatian (I kept one male because he is such a good dog). I also have 2 small mutts that we love just as much.

Shawn

You are welcome! Think of it this way, the poor guy has a primal urge to go find a lady friend, but knows he has to be a good boy and stay with you, no wonder he is anxious! You will be doing him a favor by relieving him of that unfulfillable burden to mate.

Good luck with your training! Don't give up on him! I am quite certain neutering will calm him enough to improve his focus without noticeably sacrificing his energy It will still take some trial and error to find the best training methods for him, but I am confident you will have your agility mad Mali after its all said and done! You sound very dedicated!

Neutering can only ‘guarantee’ one thing, and that is the inability to sire puppies, it can make things worse in nervous dogs ,as taking away testosterone can reduce confidence further which is the last thing you want and the last thing the dog needs.

Best working to find the root of the problem and dealing with that, see a reputable behaviourist who is knowledgeable on up to date methods and learning theory and has plenty of practical experience with nervous cases.

If you want to test if neutering may help you could either give an injection of tardek (lasts up to 6 weeks) or suprelorin implant

I'm afraid I disagree, neutering an already nervous dog can make his issues worse, what she means by " he needs all the testosterone he can get" backs up my point, he will need the testosterone he produces to help him cope with life and what it throws at him, by taking it away it can compound his issues...

So unless the poster realy needs to have him castrated I would leave him be and try to work throw his issues.

Unfortunately many of the issues this dog is showing are part of the breeds character , it's hugely important these dogs are socialised to within an inch of their life, to help them become social animals, you say he's show bred, it's generaly the show strains that are more amenable to stable temperaments, from my understanding here in the UK, it's the working strains that you see more problems with due to breeding a higher driven dog.

I would try to contact experienced owners of this breed and seek their advice, is the breeder giving you any support .

Hopefully you can sort his problems out, but please don't go jumping in to having him nurtured, it's not a quick fix or cure for all. It can and does compound things.

He needs testosterone to cope with what life throws at him? I'm sorry but I think you may be anthropomorphizing here. Female dogs can over come low confidence /anxiety issues too, I don't think high testosterone helps overcome anxiety in dogs. It's not comparable to a balding man buying a sports car and popping Viagra. However, fluctuating hormones can sometimes lead to behavioral instability in males or females.

I do agree it's not a quick fix nor a guarantee to resolve all training issues on its own, nor did I suggest that. It's simply addressing one facet. And of course, an experienced trainer could likely overcome a hormone exacerbated training issue. However, I see the recall issue as a clue roaming may be in play here (of course I'm not there to observe).

I don't want to start a debate on the other benefits of neutering or not neutering you dog, I was just offering some advice. Perhaps I should have anticipated the neutering backlash on a breeder forum, and been more careful with my response, lol.

Thanks for all the feed back guys. Shawn, he is a pet first and foremost, so if he doesnt work its not a problem. Please dont think I leave him in his crate all day, i dont, he is in it for a maximum of 3 hours at one time because, a. to help him focus, b. he likes to eat my furniture and c. if left outside he drives my collies nuts!! He gets loads of walks and sits watching tv with me in the evening, I would never rehome as he is an amazing leg warmer!! I have to be honest, having met a lot of show and working mals, imo its a real mix. I know fantastic stable shows lines and bonkers working and vice versa. I have alot of friends within the agility community who are behaviourist for a living and they are a great support, offering postitive advice and suggestions. Its just if you own a Belgian, you will know what I mean when I say......'they are different' lol, they dont do what you expect! I have owned belgians 10 years and done agility 20 years, I hate admitting defeat, so thought I would pick the brains of other 'belgian; people. I am in no hurry to casterate him, and would definately do the temporary casteration first to see if it helps in a positive way.

If I am honest, I was hoping someone out there would say 'hey, yes' I had a dog like that! kept going and now he is happy agility buddy' lol

Well, if it makes you feel better, this was not my own dog, but one of the mals at our training club was a complete skittish nut until the age of 4. The owner took a break from agility, focused on obedience only, and started again once his "attention span" improved, and he does well now Going back to basics and time/maturity seemed to work for him.

Thanks Honey

I am far from anthropomorphising here, nor am I making comparisons to balding men with sports cars.....

This dog is 3 years old and by now his hormones should be steadying out, young adolescent males have up to 3 times more testosterone surging through their system than mature males, So I can't see fluctuating levels can be responsible for his behaviour.

You suggested she had him castrated to curtail his bad recall. Castration is not going to influence poor recal only training will achieve this, and I think the poster said his recall is bad when he is stressed.

Hormones are vital to a stable temperament , removing them can make things worse, which popsmillie has already realised , which goes back to her statement about him needing all the testosterone he can get......

While overall testosterone levels plateau (in terms of huge spikes) for a while after puberty, they are not static throughout the dogs reproductive years, they will fluctuate (one hopes within the normal range)as all bodily hormones will. As far as to what degree this affects behavior, we can debate that all day long. In the end, all either of us has is our observations (one can find observational scientific studies pointing either way) and opinions. It is my observation, that the malis (and other breeds) we train with tend to be (but not always) a bit more chill after neutering, which supports my opinion. Clearly you are of a different opinion. But we can agree to disagree

I am not a breeder but use this forum, it’s a Pure breed forum plus it caters for crosses more than a breeder.

I am not against neutering in any way but its not the answer for all problems, if it was there would be no aggression/fear problems Ect: from any neutered dog.

Genetics can also play a part in a dogs temperament and if it is an inherited trait it will take a lot of time and patience, my friend had a Gsd which was scared of its own shadow it was from a line known to throw nervous offspring she persevered and worked her socks off but the temperament itself never changed

As GSDslave has said, this is not a breeders forum, it a breed forum, that caters for dogs of all discritption

I am not a breeder and am not against spay and neuter , but a agree with the above, genetics play a huge part in a dogs temperament , castration is not the answer to all problems, but sadly it seems to be the first thing some people suggest.

The only thing castration will gaurantee is it stops reproduction .

I agree, all are possible factors! It sounds like OP is taking a conservative approach and exploring her options, I wish her the best!

I won't disagree with you there. I actually think there may be a bit of a societal difference here, so you will have to excuse me. I'm in the U.S. Right or wrong, I believe we may indeed be quicker to jump to neutering as a solution across the pond given our massive unwanted pet and backyard breeder problem. Many of us come from a mindset of why NOT neuter the dog, if one has no intention to improve the breed, if there is the possibility it could help (healthwise or behavior-wise). I think the mainstream opinion in the U.S. would consider it incredibly irresponsible not to. The risk of an accidental litter is too great, and the possibility of anxiety reduction exists (personally, I've never seen a dog get worse and assumed it was a direct result of neutering, but I'll take your word for it that you have).

After googling around a bit, it seems you may have a more balanced viewpoint in the UK (And Europe in general, is that right it's banned in Norway? Blew my mind!-that's how ingrained it is here as a no-brainer solution). I'm afraid that being more thoughtful about neutering hasn't really latched on in the U.S. yet, (and indeed, might be disastrous in our environment), but given that this is a UK based sight, I'm making a mental note of that!

I still stand by my belief that it could help, but it is one of many possible factors. Training offers no guarantees either, but an open minded approach to exploring options is wise!