German Shepherd Dog (Alsatian) Discussions

Bi colours are two coloured & those two colours(In GSDs)are either Black/Tan or Black/Gold so if the dog has any white it is not a bi colour Bi colours are probably the rarest of all colours in GSDs

If there is white on this dog, as Helena says, it's most likely very pale tan. This dog is tanpoint pattern which is referred to as bicolour in GSDs. Sometimes the tan creeps up the legs a bit. There a very fine dividing line between whats actually bicolour and saddle.

And anyway the presence of white wouldn't alter the fact that she's bicolour pattern. She would just then be tricolour which simply mean 'three coloured" Just as a black and gold with white would be called black, gold & white.

There's no specific genetic difference between a grey sable and a black sable. Black sables just tend to have more eumelanin pigment. Sables with very pale phaeomelanin are the ones usually referred to as Grey and gold is the darker phaeomelanin.

You're welcome....hope you're still enjoying the thread

Off topic I know but there is no way the colour in a liver and white spaniel is any where near the same shade as a blenhiem CKC or a red and white BC.

Tan is the generic term for all shades of phaeomelanin form dark red to cream/silver. Gold is just one shade of tan.

You're absolutley right random! The Border Collie 'red' and white is in fact the same as a liver and white Spaniel but the Blenheim Cavalier is very different. It is a true red; recessive red on the E locus.

Well I'll just settle for Cassie being black/tan then, coz like you say Pod, the lighter bits (almost white) are just variations on the tan colour, which appears quite dark only on the top of her socks, but what I won't have is that she isn't a bi-colour, coz she definitely is as it's on her pedigree and that just can't be wrong!!

In those pictures though pod, I'm almost thinking she's a black and cream now though? Lol! I'm off for a lie down now, but would like to thank you for taking all the time and effort in answering my questions, coz I really am interested in all the different colours on these gorgeous dogs. My favourite has got to be that "red" colour, which I have only ever seen once in a multi coloured longcoat, but the red was quite magnificent! It wasn't tan either, it was definitely a red!

Sorry but a red & white collie(ISDS reg)that I used on the stage was identical in colour to my Blenheim Cavalier who was also in the same play

What I am trying to get over is in one breed brown(which is what reds, liver, chocolate are)is called different things & the dog in the photograph(well bitch)is not a bi colour as defined by the GSD breed standard as she has white coloured coat QED if she is tan/gold/call it what you will, Black & white she is not a bi(ie two)coloured GSD

You are obviously a GSD expert in gentically colours but the breed standard(& logically the correct names for the colours in pedigree dogs)are nothing to do with genetic that tradition names for the colours of each individual breeds

For example what is called one thing in one breed is called something else in another, otherwise Dalmatians would be Harlequins(especially the patched ones), Black & white Great Danes would be just that insead of being Mantles(or Bostons because they resemble the Boston Terrier markings)

There are no Tri Colours defined in the GSD breed standards BTW even though some dogs have three colours in their coats

Sorry but just because someone has called her a bi coloutr on a pedigree doesn't mean that she is, not even if is on her KC registration

I had a quin coloured BC the KC refused to register him as such-why their computer couldn't cope with it-he was quite clearly Black, White, Tan, with blue & red(totally different in colour to the Black & Tan)mottling(very heavy mottling too) so he was a Tri Colour-His ISDS reg stated his correct colour ie Quin colour(five coloured)

They may look similar but are very different genetically and they are in fact different pigment types. The BC 'red' is eumelanin whereas the blenheim Cavalier is phaeomelanin, ruby the same.

There are two types of true red that also occur in the BC. These are sable and recessive red. Sable in the BC is usually heavily shaded so shouldn't be confused with brown red and the other is 'Australian red' which is a pale shade, often cream, in the BC.

The KC standard doesn't define what a bicolour is. It doesn't even mention the word. Bicolour is the term used for GSDs of the tanpoint pattern, which this dog is.

Any dog with tan is going to have variation in the shade. It is usually palest on the feet, so technically she does have more than two shades but she has just two main colours - black and tan.

That's what I'm saying. Sable in GSDs is different to sable in Rough Collies. But it not correct that colour names are nothing to do with genetics. Apart from the sable misnomer (which BTW has yet to be proven) GSD people have got it pretty much correct. The standard though, hasn't.

"All black, all grey, with lighter or brown markings referred to as Sables" !!!
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/136

Dalmatians aren't harlequin (which is a variation of merle) but yes I agree with what you're saying. Border Collie 'red' is a prime example.

Tricolour is usually used in all breed for tanpoints or saddles with white markings and yes they occur in Shepherds. The 'panda' shepherds in USA. Though not in the standard of course.

I'd have to agree with the KC on this one. It's not possible to get blue pigment on a dog that has black pigment. What you were probably seeing was a combination of black and white hairs that gives the impression of blue.

Red is just one shade of tan. The dog may have had varying shades but he was three basic colours, black tan & white - tricolour.

Back in 1953 when I first started showing GSDs I had a bi colour. She came from a very paling black & gold bitch & a black & tan dog. She went on to produce a black & a bicolour in her litter mated to a black & gold dog When I expressed surprise at this my vet explained that in the spectrum black is linked to white & it was possible to produce blacks & whites in the same litter. He recommended using a grey sable to produce richer black & golds
Alot of people mistake paling black & gold shepherds for gold or grey sables but a true sable has to be born sable.
As for multi colours I have just sat here & counted how many different colours I can see on my current black & gold dog & I counted at least six but he is definitely a black & gold

That's very interesting Sue! I too have heard of the link between white and black in Shepherds but there is no known genetical explanation for this. I once trawled through some old BRSs and noted that litters that contained whites were more likely to contain blacks than other litters. It could be breeders who are more inclined to breed for whites, also include blacks as well if they are focussed primarily on colour... or it could be that there is something in the link theory.

This was thought to be the case at one time but a sable is no more likely to produce better pigment than black & tan.

Yep, I think a lot of misidentification goes on.

That can be said of tan/gold colour in just about any breed too. There are probably no dogs that are truly only two coloured.

Taken from the WUSV standard
Colour should be black with regular markings in brown, tan to light grey, also with a black saddle, dark sable (black cover on a grey or light brown case with corresponding lighter marks), black, uniform grey or with light or brown markings. Small white markings on the fore chest or a very light colour on the insides of the legs are permissible though not desired.

The nose must be black with all coat colours. (Dogs with little or no masks, yellow or strikingly light eyes, light markings on the chest and insides of the legs, white nails and a red tip of the tail or washed out weak colours are considered lacking in pigment.)

The undercoat or base hair is always light grey, with the exception of that on black dogs. The final colour of a puppy is only determined when the outer coat completely develops.
The principle coluor gene in the GSD is the agouti coat-colour series, as far as the GSD is concerned there are 5 versions (alleles) of this gene these are in dominence order:
Golden sable, grey sable, saddle marked black and tan, black with tan points (termed bi-colour), all-black, every gsd has two of these, they maybe two the same or two different ones. If you have a golden sable carrying grey then it could not produce any colours but these no matter what it was mated to. An all black (the least dominent colour) would produce other colours of progeny dependent on the genes carried by its mate.

A sable dog for you

Evan von den Grauen von Monstab
Black/red

Zamp vom Thermodos

Another

Chaikira vom Osterbergerland

more sables and a few blacks follow the link
http://www.schaeferhunde-ddr.de/images/zwinger.gif

Hi wildmoor. Willis made the proposal some time ago that there were two sable alleles in the GSD, golden and grey but research since then seems to indicate that this is not the case. Also, it is though that tanpoint and saddle are probably one and the same.

Sheila Schmutz lab is currently working on the Agouti locus and some of the alleles have been identified including - Ay (sable) at (tanpoint) and aa (recessive black) but not aw (wolf sable). If you read this webpage from the reasearch lab, you will see that Ay sable is thought not to be in the Shepherd and that all sables are in fact aw (wolf sable).

"This same ay allele is responsible for the coat color called sable in Tervuren, Malinois, Lakenois, Collie, and Shetland Sheepdog. In all these breeds some solid black hairs occur. The sable, and probably all red coat colors of the Cardigan Welsh Corgi are also caused by this allele. Note that sable in German Shepherd Dog is a term used to describe the presence of banded hairs and is not caused by this allele but instead by the aw allele as described above."

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/agouti.html

This lab is at the forefront of colour DNA identification, but we will have to wait until this research is complete. It could be that Willis was right all along!

ps: great photos, particularly the sable dog :wink:

I agree with Pod, Cassie is bicolour, not sable She is absolutely beautiful and what a fantastic photo

Quote by Jodee "...& the dog in the photograph(well bitch)is not a bi colour as defined by the GSD breed standard as she has white coloured coat QED if she is tan/gold/call it what you will, Black & white she is not a bi(ie two)coloured GSD" Unquote

If the KC say my dog is a bi-colour as on her pedigree, then that's exactly what she is! She has two colours, black and tan be it that some of the tan is a much lighter shade. Sorry, but it's true.

That's very interesting Wildmoor, and those photo's of your dogs are just fantastic, I am loving your black and red dog (sorry couldn't do the German bit!), and sorry but the link takes me nowhere, well, nothing on the page?? I would really love to see some more of your pics if possible please?

Just caught up with the thread and, thanks guys, I have found it really interesting and eye-opening!