NO not a fan. Been a punter for the breed since 1982, and am appalled by what is happening to it. Saw a Bobtail Boxer baby puppy today that was out at a show. It had a scyth shaped Tail / bob about 4 inches long, but it looked atrophied - shrivelled. Bloody disgusting. For a small percentage of neat little bobs..people are propogating this deformity.
I have a bobtail boxer, Bobby, and I can assure you that all his traits are that of a boxer, he looks exactly like a boxer just has a naturally short tail. Bobtail boxers are recognised by the Kennel Club as a pedigree and if you look far enough back into the history of a boxer you will find that a boxer is a man made breed anyway. To say that a bobtail boxer is not a "proper" boxer is rediculous. The corgi element of the bobtails were years down the line of the current bobtails.
I for one like the bobtail boxer, its a good thing that they are doing IMO, some people can be put off getting a boxer b/c they now have to have a tail, and a good bred one can look great, and its better that they are born without a tail then get it docked IMHO.
The Corgi "element" is not bred out..because you still have the bobtail...Therefore they are not truely bred back to pure Boxer. To breed back anything to pure, you must breed out the alien influence. In this case the Bob tail gene. (% Corgi) (it is not just about making the rest of it resemble a Boxer). Yes it may now have a pedigree because a committee nodded it's head in agreement to give it one. They are a new breed really, and should, if people want to retain them, be made separate from the mainsteam. The Germans are trying to eliminate the gene with their standard changes..and I applaude this as in some parts of the world the Boxer may survive as he is and was ment to. It is their breed! Was never the KC's to make such drastic changes to. And What good is saying a well bred one looks pretty when so many less than perfect bobs, no Bobs but a dent above the anus and kinked tails are produced because people want a look. What happens to the less than perfect? How much more is the gene pool reduced? More Victims for the RSPCA and the BBC to eventually get their hooks in?
The Boxer was orignally cross bred as were all breeds that are recognised today. They were the resultant of a cross between a bullenbeiser and a British Bulldog. To achieve a 'type' of dog that one liked and could fulfill a purpose. Anyone with half a brain regards breeding of any dogs should realise that you should be selecting for the length that is more appropriate. As with any breeding of pedigree dogs, you have a blueprint to work to and you are selecting the breeding stock from dogs that are closest to that blueprint whilst also considering amongst others health & temperament too. What happens with any dogs that are of pedigree status that are less than perfect?? Most end up in 'pet' homes and are adored and spoilt silly, loved for the dog that they are and aren't bred from. Does it make them any less of a dog in their owners eyes - no. The gene pool of the Boxer in the UK show world is already reduced, by 'popular sire syndrome'. Dog x is winning in the ring so people all flock to that dog because they too want to bred a winner and so it continues. How wide is the gene pool in Australia's show Boxer population? I know certainly there is not the variation of bloodlines in the UK as there used to be say 20 years ago. Each generation of the bobtail becomes more pure through the rule of percentages and number of generations. a 6th generation Bobtail is 98.5% Boxer and 1.5% Corgi, 7th generation is 99.25% Boxer .75% Corgi, and so on so by the 10th generation you have 100% Boxer. The Munich Boxer club's breed standard changes just go to show how uneducated they really are! They ban the 'naturally stumpy tail' because they are 'impure' but what about all the longtailed pups born in the litters?????? My longtailed girl also has 1.5% Corgi the same as her bobtailed litter sister. She can still show under FCI rules and regs....because they don't consider her impure as she has a longtail. Madness or just stupidity?? Or perhaps they'd like to DNA test all Boxers bred/born in the world today?? I'm sure there would be a few surprises...
I was going to write about the percentage of the corgi in the bobtail but you beat me to it, although I don't think that the dog can ever be 100% Boxer it will still have a really small amount of Corgi in it, and I think that its stupid that you can show your girl but a one with a Bobtail can, I think that people should just be happy, especially the sort of people who think that the dogs don't look right with a tail :? but I love every dog no matter what they look like and think that so many people have put so much of their time and effort into breeding these and I will respect them for that. If that makes sense.
How can you breed and select to a consistent length using a gene that does not breed true to a consistent length? ;-) A bobtail line puppy born with a long tail has the ability to breed back to pure becuse it is without the gene finally..popular sire syndrome is just another example of the short sightedness of our hobby
Re. Bobtail Boxer. Too bad when a thing is perfect some clever one has to mess about with it. Thing is I believe it has now been banned in France-hope it is correct info. My worry is how many were 'culled ' during this process ? We will never know of course, best to all, Sandrasandra
No it isn`t, imo. As far as I`m concerned it was for no other reason than getting around the docking laws which were inevitable, borne of stubborn human ego about what pro-dockers `want` over what is right and moral.
To my knowledge NONE were culled. They were all placed in loving pet homes adored for the dogs that they were. Of course you can find the FACTUAL truth by asking the man himself. Yes FACT the Munich Boxer Club has DQ'd the bobtail (the actual natural short tail as a fault) as thus the FCI countries if you show a bobtail it will be marked down because of this 'fault'. BUT also FACT is that their longtailed siblings can still be shown and won't get marked down...and they have the same Corgi percentage in their heritage as their bobtailed siblings....distinctly flawed don't you think?? All breeds that we 'know' today are man made, some have been around alot less than others. What has been proven is scientifically that you can transfer one gene from another breed and still get back breed type within a relatively short period of time. So for other breeds if they have health problems you may be able to prevent or reduce by using similar methods/application without losing the breed.
What will happen to all the 'boxers' with the new 'shorties' when the kennel club and others follow the movement of some clubs in Europe by stripping the pedigrees away from these dogs! ??? (only a matter of time) Will the breeders drop them like hot-cakes I think so ??? On the web last night I was astonished at the audacity of some 'breeders' pricing the bobtail pups as much as Two hundred Pounds higher than Boxer pups, best to all.
I spoke to the Chairman of the UK KC Ronnie Irving to ask him and he verbally told me at Windsor Champ show that they won't be disqualifying the Bobtail from the Boxer breed standard in the UK. As for the inflated prices that some charge sadly that was always going to be the risk that some would go very commercial. There are some breeders of bobtails that aren't commercial. Sadly 'commercial' breeders are in all breeds not just Boxers. Exploiting rarity with colours amongst others etc.
Maybe it is time for the international community to contact the RSPCA and the BBC with regards to the Kennel Clubs behaviour and attitude toward a breed that is not theirs and in the interests of a beauty pagent. I am so inscenced at this bastardisation of my beloved breed that I would love to see more heat on this irresponsible club. I think I will start drumming up some more noise to this end.
What short sightedness some seem to have... You cannot see the application of what this scientifically proven and published 'gene transfer' can offer to other breeds especially with regards to health issues. Have you campaigned so ardently on Boxer breed health issues?? Have you succeeded in reducing the incidence of Aortic Stenosis or eradicated PA from the breed with the help of similar minded Boxer breeders? Dr Cattanach has. He has also helped other breeds with health issues too, have you?? Oh and I doubt very much whether the BBC would be that bothered to be honest....it wasn't them that produced Pedigree Dogs...and one of those that did quite like Dr C and what he has to stand for. It's not just YOUR beloved breed it's MINE too, and I don't tell you how you must or must not have your dogs in Australia so why do you think you have the right to tell me how I must have my dogs look in the UK? I abide by the UK breed standard when showing my dogs in the UK. Everyone has the FREEDOM of choice to have or not have a bobtail. If you know your pedigree lines inside out you will know what lines will carry the bobtail. If you don't know well that's pretty sad really..most responsible breeders/exhibitors should look beyond the 5 generations you see on the pedigree infront of you. Some would say that some are not happy as someone else beat them to it (I understand the German/Munich Boxer club was trying to achieve a naturally erect ear by using spitz breeds - is that ok by you??)...if they DNA tested the Boxer the world over I think that a fair few surprises would be thrown into the mix.. Our breed is relatively young compared with the history of others. I don't see this infusion as a 'Bastardisation' of the breed. I think there will always be 'Passionate' debate about the bobtail and suffice to say we will have to disagree on this. You are Anti and I'm Pro. I will continue to keep all my Boxers, the docked, the long and the bob as to me they are all very much Boxer. I love the breed docked, long or naturally short. Oh and I do help out with breed health issues too. Having all my dogs at the time given blood DNA and pedigree info released to the AHT for research into Mast Cell Tumours within the Boxer breed. Have had two of my Boxer's hearts (plus other medical information/history) sent to the relevant Veterinary University's to help with research into Aortic Stenosis and more recently Cardiomyopathy. Won't hesitate to do the same again either when it's time again. Or with any other health issue. So I am VERY passionate about the Boxer breed as a whole. Not just about their tail or lack of it!
Australia has some sort of reciprical agreement with the UK kennel club. The bitzers were in the country registered as Boxers before anyone even really knew it. If the German Boxer club developed the breed and the development bred true I would probably accept it. It is their breed. I doubt however that they would have just chucked this new type just so so into the mix...can see how they would have gained consistency either that way. I would like to think they would have created a new sister breed. Hearsay anyway...it's not an issue at the moment. Thanks for your resume by the way Boxacrazy. I wont get so excited, suffice it to say I participate in my own way to the health and ethical considerations of purebred dogs. I am not driven by show ring ego. I have also consulted with well known breeders here who also know Dr C. and he has gained no respect or applause from those breeders. Cheers
I find this really interesting. If the boxer was 'my' breed, I might feel differently, but as I see it, the KC slightly relaxing its rules to accommodate an aesthetic modification is positive, in that it should increase the likelihood of them allowing outcrossing for health reasons. I am totally behind allowing controlled outcrossing for health, and have recently written to the KC (and actually got a reply!) regarding the LUA Dalmatian. I truly hope that if they can accept an outcross for aesthetic reasons, they can accept an outcross that will dramatically improve the health of a breed.
Oh dear, what a way to bring a conversation down in to the play ground... by name calling Lets hope these breeders who have no respect for Dr Cattanach , when reaping the benefits of all the health issues he is addressing and working to eradicate, in OUR breed , they will be a little more magnanimous.. towards his ethics and dedication to help OUR BREED. You may not like the bobtail, "fine" thats your choice, and if you feel you have a crusade to lobby OUR KC with , go ahead, but do it with a little grace, NOT with an attitude of dislike , of someone who you have a grievance too,someone who by the way is working for the WORLDWIDE Boxer, not just on one continent. Boxercrazy along with many others in the breed are getting off their backsides to make OUR breed a healthier one. It takes come conviction to donate your dogs hearts for research as such an emotional time dont you think. The Bobtail is a controversial subject, and to be honest, they are not for me... that said, I dont have any problems with those who are pro. Not sure why you bring the show ring into this, with such a dismissive attitude... surely all these breder friends of yours would be involved in the show circuit, or are they simply "pet breeders" P,S I am led to believe DR C is always open to communication, why not talk to him with your grievance, I am sure he is willing to listen.
Well I am probably one of the few on here who has actually met Mr Cattanach and spoken at length with him on the phone in the 'early' days of this and I personally applaud the man, not necessarily for the reason behind the experiment but for actually having the guts to go against the grain and do it. He got permission in advance, as anyone can, to go ahead with this and finally get them registered. I really don't see what the fuss is about, they are so many generations down the line that they are more Boxer than anything else so does it really matter? No, Bruce just carried on what was done in the early part of the 20th century to maintain breeds and health, that is outcrossing with other breeds! Becky
