I like Boxers with tails, personally, but introducing another breed will surely widen the gene pool, which may even benefit the breed in future?
That was my first thought but this breeder has unfortunately, after outcrossing, inbred litter after litter. Any beneficial affect from the outcrossing will have been loss by the inbreeding. I prefer Boxers with tails too
The mutations that cause bobtail are most certainly 'natural' in that they first occurred without human input but this doesn't mean that their prolifieration or frequency in a man made breed is natural. Spontaneous mutation occur regularly and the vast majority of these are detrimental or neutral to the dog. In a natural population in the wild, the detrimental mutations would be bred out, or reduced to a level of rareity where they had little effect on the species, simply because the dogs that displayed them would have a reduced chance of survival. The fact that bobtail doesn't occur in wild dog poulations is proof enough that this s a detrimental mutation. It is the process of selective breeding that has established this trait in breeds, likewise with other mutations eg achondroplasia, brachycephalia, excessive coat, hairlessness etc....
This breeder as you call him is a highly respected geneticist in his own right.. And is well respected in the dog world... He is always willing to talk genetics, so maybe e.mail him with your concerns over his breeding practices, I am sure he will be interested in your thoughts. http://www.steynmere.com/midtitle.gif
I take it that you see this practice as acceptable then There are a lot of highly respected breeders out there who are far from ethical.
My view on Bobtails is irrelevant..but as you ask, no I am not a fan of them.. Dr Bruce Cattanach is not only a breeder but is highly respected in the field of genetics... and obviously as you have concerns over his breeding programme and ethics... he is the one you should question.
I thought I'd ask the man himself and here is Dr Cattanach's answer to your statement. Don't know what the writer is alluding to but assume somehow - Bobtail. There was one outcross to the different breed (CORGI), and thereafter backcrosses to Boxer but no inbreeding. True, any unknown 'beneficial' effects of the cross will have been lost as the population is now just standard Boxer. The writer is very confused about inbreeding but if we assume they mean Bobtail x Bobtail matings, these have been done primarily in Corgi's (But also in other breeds). 10 years ago the number of such litters in the Corgi was over 40 - with a litter size no different, if slightly larger, than the two controls. There have been 5 litters in Boxers so far.
I really hope these poor Bobtail Boxers don't end up with the same health problems as the manx cat which can be tailless ie rumpy or bobtailed ie stumpy :-( They often suffer from bowel and bladder problems including incontinence :-(
Dr Cattanach's answers But what in domestic dogs is natural? Every breed, Every characteristic, is man-made or manipulated by man. Dr Cattanach's answer Correct. None of our pedigree dogs could be expected to survive in the wild. Dr Cattanach's answer First, is there such a thing as a wild dog population? There are wolves, African wild dogs etc but they are not exactly the same species? Second any mutation has first to occur before it can be tested for fitness in the wild and it is extremely unlikely that the bobtail mutation discussed has ever occurred before and surely won't again. It represents a unique base-pair change (At the DNA level). However, thinking of bobtails/short tails generally, there is the bobcat, the hyena, the mole, the guinea pig to mention only a few of the species with short tails. Whether a species has a tail or not depends on some need. But the Corgi-type bobtail has survived in farm dogs, cattle dogs, Herding/Guarding dogs over centuries and well before cosmetic breeding. It must have offered some advantage over long tailed dogs in the various harsh working conditions.
My opinion is and it is only an opinion is that boxers have always meant to have tails that's how they have been born the only reason they dont look right without one is because people have been docking them off for so long but tail or not a boxer looks like a boxer so why breed it to have a stubb. I also think that breeding a boxer to have a short tail naturally can only help people sell their litters who still dock there tails how can we truely put a stop to it when now they could say well it's a bobtail boxer.
Sorry but you can feel if a dog's tail is a natural bobtail. So those that mistakenly feel that they can 'bend the law' and claim that it is a bobtail will have a shock. Most breeders of bobtails will/can get veterinary certification to proove that puppies were born with bobtails. They (the breeder) will also have photographic evidence too.
Are you trying to say your bobtail Boxer is not inbred? I'm not confused at all Secondly why would anyone want to breed deformed puppies, are you of the opinion that dogs don't need tails? You can give all the excuses you want, imo it's very wrong. Outcrossing to other breeds to improve health yes, but not to bring in a deformity!
Ahh right ok i feel alot better on that part but i still keep my opinion of they should not mess with their genes and keep their tail i dont see how people dont feel ashamed of depriving them off such a thing that can bring joy to most dogs i know my dog loves his tail. Anyway i must say thanks for that info
Yeah I'm agreed with most of the others - Its far kinder to the animal to introduce a second breed to reach the desired characteristics than it is to butcher the dog's tail to get what you want.
I'm saying that your earlier statement of Dr Cattanach's bobtails are all inbred is factually incorrect. I quote you from 19/8/08 "That was my first thought but this breeder has unfortunately, after outcrossing, inbred litter after litter. Any beneficial affect from the outcrossing will have been loss by the inbreeding". My own bobtail has only one common dog that appears twice in the pedigree and that is in the 5th generation. So bobtail and her longtailed sibling are in effect outcrossed. As they have no relatives (or the same dogs appearing) in the first 4 generations. The bobtail is just as healthy as any of my tailed or docked Boxers. Infact many bobtails have passed routine testing for spondylosis (spinal problem) in scandanavia. I don't have the numbers but I'm sure that Dr Cattanach can get the info. I am not giving ANY excuses but just facts. There will always be two sides to any 'debate' those that like/are for and those that don't/are against. We will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
LOL Just shows how broadly the Doctor paints a picture to make this crossing OK. #1 Guinea pigs don't have tails at all - they are not Bobtails. #2 Hyenas, bears etc breed true to their tails. These are true natural short tails. #3 The Bobtail gene used in the Boxer via the crossbreeding of the Corgi is not the same as the broad range of animals the Dr uses to advocate the use of this particular Gene in the Boxer. And as a support for the contined use and propogation of it in the pedigree dog world. One cannot draw scientific conclusions on this. There is only ONE BOXER. It is a German developed breed from ancient stock. Did the German clubs sanction this? I think not! Were any members referendumed? The German Club asked the FCI to ammend the Standard to read that the Bobtail in the Boxer was an eliminatory fault both in the ring, and Eliminatory also means not to be bred from. The Tail is to be left natural and normal length. The Bobtail is to be bred out of pure Boxer lines. So now the question. In Australia and the UK and all other countries that jumped on this bandwagon. What are we doing? In Aus they want to do it with the Dobermans (another German breed) and god knows what breed next. I thought we were breeding purebred dogs? It seems the only time we can agree that this sort of crap is wrong is if someone who is not a member of our kennel clubs do it for design or the petshop. But if we get a comittee under the auspices of a club to nod their heads sagely..it is OK? So what if..what if we continue down this path and ignore the standards of country of origin? Are we any better than BYB if we allow or approve this sort of thing?
