(Another!) WL GSD thread Working Dogs

After much dithering and humming and hawing I’m planning to get my next pup at the end of next summer/autumn time. I’ve decided on a WL GSD (thanks in part to Moobli and the gorgeous Zak) and I’m starting to contact breeders now with a view to finding out their breeding plans for the next year and organising visits to meet them and their dogs. I want to make sure I get this right!

I’m very involved in competitive obedience and this is one of the main reasons for getting a WL dog – I want one that wants to work and has the drive and stamina to keep going. My current obedience dog is wonderful and willing but is a little lacking in stamina. We also do agility mainly for fun and hopefully there’s a working trials club starting in our area soon so we’ll definitely be getting involved in that assuming it gets off the ground. Also it goes without saying we have many long walks, 2 hours+ a day and individual play/train/work time most days. I work from home and have total flexibility with my hours so I have plenty of time for the dogs during the day.

So – I’m looking for a WL dog whose main purpose in life is obedience so will be content with that and won’t feel short changed by not zooming round the schutzhund field or apprehending criminals. Mainly it’s got to be a dog I can live with as part of the family and that can be reliable and happy when taken out in to the world in general. When telling people that I want a WL dog their responses vary from ‘DON’T DO IT!!’ to ‘avoid Czech line dogs (too hard)’, ‘avoid Belgian line dogs (too sharp)’, and/or ‘avoid dogs bred for sport’. Discounting the DON’T DO IT!! brigade, none of whom I think have ever had anything to do with WL dogs, should I actively seek out or avoid any particular type or line? How would I identify breeders who breed specifically/mainly for sport (maybe I’m being thick but it’s not obvious to me from looking at websites)? Should I be looking at breeders who breed for police work in which case would such a dog be happy, fulfilled and suitable for the obedience ring? There seem to be a lot of breeders about who are crossing show/working lines is this worth looking into?

So far I’ve contacted Ashlindt – who do have some dogs doing very well in obedience, but have only bred 2 litters of WL GSDs and have now retired the mother of those litters and will be using a new bitch for their next litter. I’ve also had a brilliant chat with Jo Radley at Moonwater who was extremely helpful, knowledgeable and informative.

I know there are a number of WL owners on Dogsey, any input or recommendations would be very much appreciated. (Thank you to those who I’ve already contacted ! ).

There is an option in working trials for doing PD so your dog may have a chance to chase criminals.

I got my WL from Jo at Moonwater.

I don't know who else to recommend really, or enough about lines..... are there any WL GSD's competing in OB that you could find out their lines?

I have worked with more than 50 Czech GSD's, I wouldn't say they were particularly hard but they aren't always that drivey and I'm not drawn to them personally.

I think any dog working in Sch will also have the drive for OB, so I would personally go with sport bred lines.

You know my thoughts on it all LupiLu I wholeheartedly recommend the (right) WL GSD to active and experienced homes. I wouldn't be without mine, and wouldn't want any other type now.

As I am so happy with Zak (and he ticks all the boxes you have mentioned in your post) I would most certainly go back to his breeder again in the future.

Other breeders who have been recommended to me are:

Argonne
http://severnsideschutzhund.co.uk/#/ron-white/4531701398

Elmhaus
http://www.elmhausgsd.co.uk/

Shadowquest
http://www.cheshirecanine.com/stud-dogs.htm

Vytensa
http://www.vytensa.co.uk/webpage.php?ChildID=3

It might be worth your while popping on to the K9 Protection dog board, as there are always working line pups for sale on there.

I think one of the most important things is that, when you have found breeders who produce dogs that tick all your boxes, to be perfectly straight and honest with them about what you want to do with your dog, and then they will be able to steer you towards a particular litter or let you know that their dogs may not be suitable. A good breeder will never want their pups going to an unsuitable environment.

I have found that my WL is higher energy, with a higher drive and willingness to work, can be rather pushy and never seems to tire when compared to my other GSDs. However, he is also the dog with the best temperament and the strongest nerve and is incredibly social. He also has an excellent off switch (although saying that, he is always ready to be off and doing too ).

Do you know of anyone competing with WL GSD in obedience? If so, have a chat with them about their dog and other WLs that are already doing well in obedience and then investigate those breeders too.

The description of your lifestyle and what you want to do with your new dog sounds ideal for a WL GSD. The ones to steer clear of are the breeders who are breeding for an extreme sport dog.

Good luck in your search Exciting times

The other option would be to import a pup from Europe. A friend of mine is bringing her 15 week old pup back from France today

Oh and one more thing ;-), have a chat with Zak's breeder (I already gave you the details) as she is exceptionally knowledgeable about the various lines and types and will be more than happy to inform you which to look for and which to stay away from. She also won't give you a sales pitch, and is always just happy to give advice without pushing her own breeding/dogs.

Don't forget to let us know how you get on.

Thank you Scout. Jo was absolutely fantastic to talk to and really helpful - she's also planning a litter for about the time I'll be looking next year

I know someone who's working in obedience with a Czech dog and finds him really really difficult to handle. This is a person who's won ticket and taken dogs to compete at Crufts so is extremely experienced and she's the one who told me to avoid the Czech dogs. However litters and even litter mates vary hugely so probably the trick is to find a breeder in whom you have complete confidence and let them recommend or even pick out the right pup for you.

With regard to sports lines I think I'm possibly worried that they may have too much drive for obedience!

There are a great many GSDs working in obedience, they're the second most popular dog after collies, but very few of them seem to be working line - maybe I should take notice of this!

Absolutely sounds like fun! Fingers crossed the WT club manages to get going - there are many people locally who are very keen and willing to help and I've offered any assistance I can and I believe they're just waiting for confirmation of the venue so hopefully it won't be long.

Have been playing telephone tag with Zak's breeder so hopefully we'll manage to make contact soon

It's beginning to look like there's no shortage of good dogs here in the UK and I think the problem for me is just narrowing it down so I can make the right choice! Adding another country into the mix will probably just confuse me completely :? However in the unlikely event that I can't find something here I'll definitely keep this in mind.

Thank you Moobli. For all my muddled tentativeness I'm very confident about getting a WL dog and being able to keep it happy and fulfilled and I'm really excited and looking forward to the search!

I've been trying to get hold of Shadowquest both by phone and email but with no luck so far. I plan to get in touch with Elmhaus too. Aren't Vytensa very sport oriented?

Do you know which breeder the Czech dog came from? I really like some of the Czech dogs, but it is finding the breeders who are breeding for the whole dog, rather than just the look, that may be more difficult.

Both Zak's mother and grandmother were imported from Eastern Germany, but since the DDR registry ended with the unification of Germany in 1990, there are no DDR dogs born since then. Zak is line bred 3.2 on Tino vom Felsenschloß, one of the last DDR registered dogs, with all the backmassing of DDR lines that entails.

His grandfather, Angus is predominantly Belgian working lines through Pasco vom Peko Haus and Xatoh vom Haus Sevens, with some Western showlines from the 1980's on his mother line and back again to a border patrol dog from the East who was Angus gggg grandfather.

Thus, Zak is a mix of lines on paper, but genetically predominantly DDR through backmassing of Eastern German ancestors because Tino is so close up in the pedigree.

As for sports lines having too much drive for obedience - a number of experienced working line people told me (when I was debating about getting a WL) that if you don't build drives in the WL GSD the drives will remain dormant (for bitework etc). It is when you start to build drive that the WL dogs can become high.

Yes, I understand that.

It can be mind-boggling searching for a new pup, and wanting to make the perfect choice, but being worried about making the wrong one.

Vytensa do breed for Schutzhund peeps, but when I contacted Tom about a prospective WL pup and I explained that he/she would mainly be an active companion, as well as dabbling in tracking/searching and working trials type stuff he was more than happy for me to go along and meet his dogs etc, so clearly wasn't worried that one of his pups wouldn't suit such a home.

This gorgeous boy was owned by a Dogsey member and he had a fab temperament as far as I know.

He was from the Mayanser kennel

http://www.mayanser.com/

I wouldnt let the fact that its mostly showline GSD's in OB put you off, I dont think its because WL can't do it but more because WL make up a tiny % compared to the number of SL and I think most people who have WL and want to do something tend to do Sch/WT.

my friend has an Elmhaus bitch, she is lovely, in her first wt comp this weekend.

That web site had a nice story.
Thanks for posting Moobli.

Picking out the sport type dogs vs. the working type dogs is primarily a matter of semantics among this breed. A good dog for you is a good dog for you. You will find that the dogs competing in sports and performance at the higher levels can also be very "real" working dogs, it is up to you to decide what levels and types of drives and what thresholds you want to work with in a dog.

I just took a look at the following breeder that Moobli linked:
http://www.elmhausgsd.co.uk/

They really catch my eye. I browsed the pedigrees and I am very fond of the lines they breed, some of my favorite dogs of my GSD's breeder also go to similar lines. A lot will depend on the pairing and the individual in person (rather than on paper pedigree), of course. Interestingly enough I have seen both types that would be labeled "sport dogs" and "'real' working dogs" out of these lines. Equally fantastic dogs on both ends of the spectrum, and I see no reason to try and draw a line.

Not to disagree with those more experienced in the breed, but I'm not sure that would be how I'd word it.

Drive is innate. It is either there or it isn't. But when and under which circumstances it will be expressed in the dog will vary. You can build on it to bring it out to its maximum potential, and you can manage and contain it, and you can squash and completely misdirect it. What they seem to be talking about is, to me, more a matter of thresholds and drive stamina.

For example, a cat runs from out of nowhere and my dog innately wants to give chase and once he does, he will shut out the world around him and zone in entirely on that cat. He can be quickly amped up if I invited him into a game of chase, or teased him with a flirt pole. I taught him to play catch by building on his love of chasing things. He has prey drive, without a doubt. But now, with training, if a cat appears, he will show interest, but ultimately ignore and can be called back if he begins the chase.

Another example - a stranger barges into my room. A year ago, my dog will rush the stranger in a flash of teeth and spit and raised hackles. He will growl, snarl, and threaten in a very physical, serious manner. Similarly, if we are walking in the dark and someone jumps out at me and I become afraid or nervous, he will put on the same warning display. Now, at 3 1/2, if a stranger runs into my room, he will give a steady alert bark, no hackles raised, and quiet and calm down at my cue. He will easily accept any stranger that I do, but until then, the most he will do is alert and then watch.

Is those prey and defense drives lying dormant? No, in my opinion. What has happened is that 1) he has grown a brain and strong nerves that balance out the instincts/drives and 2) with experience, management, and training, we've built a higher threshold for those drives. He will show equal enthusiasm in the chase and equal reactive aggression with no need on my part to bring out or build on the drives, but with training he is no longer triggered as quickly or easily.

My dog is a pet/companion dog of the litter, his strength in drives are the more subtle ones, and his thresholds are higher and energy levels lower. Even in the hands of his breeder, an international working dog judge, he cannot become a competitor in trials at a national level. The flash and drives are not enough, and cannot be built any higher than their maximum potential.

My dog's full sister, on the other hand, is the highest drive of the litter and the once-in-a-lifetime bitch. Hard, resilient, high drive, high energy, and low thresholds. She went to a pet/companion home and into the hands of someone who has worked hard for the last 3 years to build up her thresholds, but she will never be as my dog is. And trust me when I say her owner had never built or tried to bring out any of that drive - she wanted a low key pet and has only worked to contain that drive. She has never been on the sleeve a single day of her life, but I can guarantee that she would hit harder, faster, and fuller than many seasoned and already titled Schutzhund dogs. Now that Shepherd is the one the breeder wants to buy back and take to Nationals.

Just my thoughts and limited experience for what they are worth.