A dilemma, and a few tips please you lovely people! Questions

First off, the dilemma!

As you know I am owned by my lovely Betsy, a lovely lab x collie of almost 5 months.

We have been going to a particular dog training school, one that everyone I bumped into before getting her reccomended, I sat in for 7 sessions (yes really) before properly committing. Everything sounded fine and dandy, the head trainer is lovely, dogs seem to be having a good time, so we chose to stay with them and are working towards our puppy foundation award. We have 2 more sessions to go.

Now last "lesson" has made me think.

Betsy will settle down (as much as a almost 5 month old collie cross can ) on command everywhere. At home. On the train. In a taxi. In a cafe. Everywhere, apart from puppy class. To the point that I'm starting to get to the point where one particular instructor is having *words* with me several times. I don't mind advice, and constructive criticism.

The method they are using is step on the lead close to the collar so the pup settles down. Whilst I used this method with archie, my old lab, several yonks ago, I am starting to really question the method, as I have done LOTS of research and finding that a collar alone with a lead, may actually damage a dogs neck. As my old dog had to have an op on his larynx, I am am kinda more well read than alot of people in this area, and this really doesnt sit right with me. I was under the impression that dog training is not a quick fix, but teamwork to comitt to so both of you have the best quality of life. I also would like to exclusively train with progressive reinforcement as I have seen its soo much more effective- having been a loyal positive reinforcement trainer/crossover trainer before. The way we had initially done it is when betsy settles down of her own accord, say settle down, and give her a chew (only command I dont use the clicker for as she gets too excited!). The head trainer respects this.

Another thing is, when she jumps up (despite trying to capture behavior before she jumps up) I will ignore her and then give loads of belly rubs when she lies down- and I try and do a calm greeting and put her in the crate and take her out. This has been working, however, at classes she of course forgets this and jumps up. Despite doing very well in every other place. (aware dogs dont generalize well).

However, despite me trying to adhere to my methods with support, one of trainers is being a tad patronizing (although I feel they are meaning well) and saying she is pushing me as she has collie in her. I am aware she is smart, well aware as you all know! But I very much doubt she is "pushing me" for the sake of it- even down to when she whines she doesnt do it for no apparent reason- she will let me know if she is hungry, needs to go out, water dish topped up or if her gums hurt (I fear she is starting to teeth again) she is only trying to communicate in the only way she knows how.

This trainer has also said that I need to be more firm with her and give a lead correction when she jumps up. Now, as a ex positive reinforcer trainer as compared to a progressive trainer I used to think that was the solution. Then I thought actually- instead of telling off and taking it out on the pup, maybe I just haven't taught it properly and she just needs to generalize with more people instead of having her neck pulled?


Also she made a big deal about if I chose not to train it that way I would have problems in the future and it was my choice? (tad closed minded?)

Am I mad as well to only want to use a harness for walking (obvs collar is a legal requirement for ID) due to the above?

For those of you who are thinking "leave the class", the main instructor is lovely, says they don't advocate lead corrections or even tight leads and understands my want to walk her on a harness only, and is generally respectful and supportive of my way of training and says he will have a word with rest of the team to clear up any misunderstandings.

Now I feel awkward about going back- I've done the right thing haven't I? I'm worried shes really going to have it in for me next lesson..., and if you know who you are and reading this, I'm sorry but I want to train a totally kind way that isn't going to put my dogs health at risk, having seen consequences before.

Also, I know of only one class in the area that clicker trains exclusively, but they do agility only (Betsy will be attending their pre agility classes - no pressure on joints, just proofing the basics with distractions and directionals etc)

All the rest I have heard negative reports about, have lied to owners about achievements/qualifications/experience.

Another thing is that I'm kinda getting the message that she is passively accusing me of not doing homework- I practise, every day, lots of times a day, in different environments.

ARRGH WHAT DO I DO. I just want the best for betsy!

Can you go into a class with the head trainer?
Its fair enough that you are not going to agree with everything another trainer says - its not cool for her to be making you feel picked on
Its difficult tho because for the things you are wanting to work on in the class you really need the help of at least the trainer in the class to generalise jumping up and stuff on other people

I agree totaly that thats not a nice way to teach a settle - for a class type thing the 'control unleashed' 'mat work' would prob what I would go with - basically you clicker her to go and lie on the mat, then you build up to her staying there no matter what is going on - and you also try and shape for calm on the mat - then you can take the mat to lots of places and it makes it easier for them to generalise cos the mat is always there

and the not jump up - leash corrections - yuck
The puppy class I was at they had everyone in the class one at a time go up to a dog, when it jumped up they just stepped back so it didnt get any fuss - as soon as it sat down they were given a treat and a fuss and the next person came over - the dogs picked it up quickly
You can also have people drop treats on the floor before the dog gets the chance to jump

To begin with I think you have to accept that you are not going to gel with all trainers as even if their methods are sound, well proven, effective and kind, we are all human. We have to accept that we are not going to see eye to eye with everyone.

However, whilst I have to work with lots of people I have no intention of spending any of my leisure time with, (because I have to earn a living) when I purchase a service, I can, if that service does not meet my requirements, change my service provider.

However, it is likely that when I change my service provicder that I will find "fault" with that one sooner or later as nobody is perfect (except me of course)

Thus I have to weigh up the pros and cons.

Stepping on the lead close to the collar is not going to damage the larynx as the pressure comes from above rather than below so that in itself is not an issue.

Whether you choose to use that method or not depends on several factors.

I personally do not have a problem with it for domestic control for some pet owners as we have to take into account owner compliance and using other methods may be too much for them, either temporarily or permanently.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here:

Now, as a ex positive reinforcer trainer as compared to a progressive trainer I used to think that was the solution

Perhaps you could explain to me the difference as I have not got a clue?

I also would like to exclusively train with progressive reinforcement as I have seen its soo much more effective- having been a loyal positive reinforcement trainer/crossover trainer before.

I do not understand the above either?

Many people are coming over to thinking that using a harness may be better for dogs all round in terms of prevengting handler restraint damage.

I think if you say the head trainer is going to remind the mor junior members of their policy I would not worry.

I would also just remember that no matter how well you think your dog is trained, at 5 months there is no way that your dog is going to be reliable in all situations at this age, irrespective of breed.

You might want to name drop, say Susan Garrett, and agree with your trainer that your dog is TAR.

If she is well read she will know this refers to "Too Aroused to Respond" at training class.

And that you know that dogs, like many other species, are "non linear" with regard to learning.

Finally adopt the strategy I often use which has served me well in all situations.

Just nod, agree and carry on doing what you want.

You are ALWAYS going to meet people who have a different perspective on dog training than you.

It does not mean they are terrible, the devil incarnate or untutored, just that they are different.

I am sure you can agree to disagree?

I am, but this happens either at the end, or when he is talking to someone else. :/

Part of me doesnt want to leave, but the other part of me is saying leave and dont let the twit near my pup :/ I do appreciate that I need a class environment to help train some of this well & to generalize/proof, and understand that. I also feel bad about A) leaving the nice trainer, and also B) criticising a kc judge with perhaps 30yrs experience as a lowly 21 uni student!

Are you sure the settle down method wont hurt her? Because I feel really guilty as my old dog had larynx problems and do not wish that on her.Remember I'm learning!

Apparently there is a difference. Positive reinforcement training means only that, you may incoraparate positive methods, but may use more traditional methods as well.

Progressive means you use entirely positive, no lead corrections, no verbal reprimands (just positive interrupters) no physical force, no intimidation whatsoever.

I know. I know we have different opinions, and I am currently doing the nod and agree thing ;P I am also aware there is alot worse out there. Would you continue if it was you on to the next level at this particular school?

I would until and unless I found something much better and/or I was specifically instructed to carry out something I violently disagreed with.

Thanks smokeybear. I just needed someone elses view to check I wasn't being silly Well that makes me feel a tad better. Thank dog for dogsey!

You are not going to hurt your dog by stepping on the lead to make them settle
But it is a very 'forceful' way to train - the dog hasnt chose to settle - they have just given up struggling

Thats what I mean :/

Smile when this trainer comes over but tell him you are using a different training method, which the head trainer agrees with, then let your results speak for themselves when she is the best pup in the class in a few weeks

Ben Mcfuzzylugs, thanks. I'm not great in even fractionally confrontational situations you are a star!

Absolutely, it is exactly the same as when you hold your dog on a lead in any situation.

If it is lunging, jumping and trying to get to (inser relevant object) etc, they have not chosen not to go after what they want, they just give up struggling.

It is a very "forceful" way to train, preventing behaviours by attaching a lead to a collar.

I don't know where you got this definition from, but it's a new one on me

Why can't you use a harness in class? I would and would leave if the trainer insisted otherwise. My dog, my equipment, my choice!

A good trainer should allow you to use an alternative technique if you don't want to use the one demonstrated. At 5 months old, you're not going to get perfection in a class situation unless you have a really easy dog and there aren't too many of them around

Seriously, I'd keep going to the class if I agreed with most of the training, but do my own thing when I didn't agree with, or thought my dog would do better using a different, whilst still kind technique

Depends how you use the lead - I see it as a managment tool rather than a training tool
I train my dogs to walk nicely on a loose lead - when I fail the lead stops them running into a dangerous situation

Precisely, managing dogs in all situations is paramount for their safety and that of others.

If you use the lead to prevent them running off, then it is used in exactly the same way as it is to prevent them getting up.

No not really
The 'training' them to settle is holding them with the lead tight so they cant rise up
If it was just being used as a managment then the lead would be loose and the dog would actually be being taught with rewards or praise to remain lying down - the lead would not be the actual primary tool for the training

My dogs are not walking on a loose lead because they have given up struggling against the lead - if I am doing it correctly then they dont get to the end of the lead

Yes people do train walking on a loose lead by using the lead - either by keeping it tight so the dog cant get anywhere - or by corrections with the lead
but that is not what I am doing and it is not the same at all

You can still reinforce the down by praise and rewards etc etc


When you hold a dog on a lead whether it is sitting down, lying down, standing up or moving, whether or not the lead is loose or taut, the result is the same, you are PREVENTING a dog moving out of a specific sphere of control which the lead provides.

You are FORCING the dog to remain in a specific location.

Just as when you shut the door on a crate/car/house etc you are FORCING a dog to stay where it is.

Simples

The OP was talking about the dogs being trained to remain in a down position by stepping on the lead, physically preventing them from rising up
That is complleatly different then keeping hold of a loose lead so the dog can choose whether to stand up or not - but the lead is there as a backup so the dog cannot totaly wonder off and disturb other dogs in the class
just by saying 'simples' does not make you correct

and that is as far as I am getting into it with you, it is totally derailing the OP's thread just on your one woman mission to have everyone agree with your terms and methods for everything

go with your gut instinct. I had to leave half way through my 2nd lot of training, purely because my dog was not happy with one particular trainer there, she shouted at her one night, making her spend the rest of the evening hiding under my chair I did go back the following week, just to see if I could continue, but when my dog wouldn't take a treat off this certain trainer, I asked if I could sit at the end and just watch for the evening doing nothing, and see how my dog was, but again, she took to hiding underneath my chair, so that did it for me, I never went back.

I completed her training on my own, and I've done well. If you know the basics, I'd put some time aside each day and do it yourself, indoors and out, much better idea than being patronised at a training class. I agree with you too, your dog only knows how to whine to ask for something, whether that be to go out, or she's hungry, just like you said, so again, listen to your gut instinct and if you don't feel comfortable, then nor will your dog, so walk away. Good luck!

Derail away, I'm really bad at rambling!

I do this already but I kind of like someone hovering over me as a pro to just make sure I'm going on the right track :/

Talking of whining sorry about slow reply - betsy teething again and I think I've found a cure!

Frozen mango in a kong, shes been the quietist for ages!

Agreed!