Border Collie quick question Showing

I have fallen in love with BCs. I wont be able to get one for many years, Ill have to see what happens to me after graduation first but was reading about them anyway.

I read that a BC cant become a champion unless it has a working qualification. Does this mean it cant just be a show champion What would a relevant working qualification be?

Sorry for the questions just being nosey, nothing wrong with knowledge

A Border Collie can only be a Sh Ch until and unless it has passed the KC herding test, then it is a Ch.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2351

Thanks SB, ever the trusty fountain of knowledge

I would like to see more breed clubs of herding breeds have a similar test. It seems unfair that only a few breeds have this and in the case of the BC it's a shadow of what the breed is truly capable of when bred for work not show.

A bit like Malinois really............

I was thinking of other breeds, actually.
If Alaskan Malamutes can get a Pack Dog title, then it why can't all Pastoral breeds work towards something similar?

And no reason why Malinois or any BSD can't have the same.

The test had to be dumbed down so more dogs could pass it, to date there has only been 1 Champion Border Collie, all the rest are Show Champions.

When I started to show my first male BC I contacted the KC & asked them if he would have to pass the test to become a full champion if he did become a Show Champion(not that this was very likely)they told me that he would have to despite the fact he had won enough real Sheepdog trials to qualify for the ISDS English National Sheepdog Trials ! According to the KC ISDS sheepdog trials aren't as testing as their herding test !!!

Nuff said really !

Thank you for your reply, very interesting. Have you a link to info on the ISDS trails at all just so I can have a look.

There are some videos of the top ISDS trials here

Details re ISDS trials can be found on the ISDS site

My observation was actually aimed at your statement

it's a shadow of what the breed is truly capable of when bred for work not show.

This is what many competitive people think of the BSD.

The show bred ones have not, to date, excelled in Working Trials, Schutzhund, Mondioring, Obedience etc as the Working Bred ones.

This is a fact.

Hence why serious competitors do not select show/pet bred stock.

define 'competitive people' - those that compete in agility and obedience for example certainly rate the BSD ( and yep even the so called 'show bred' ones' ) here are just a few :


Agility Champion Bonvivant Kallisto ( Malinois )
Olympia ABC Agility Stakes Champion 2008
First Ever BSD Agility Champion in the UK
World Agility Open Double World Champion 2011 - Triple Gold Medal winner

Heidron Stormy Skye ( Tervueren )
BSD Agility World Champion 2008 & 2009


Minack Red Aral ( Tervueren )
Obedience Champion

Vanistica Gideons Moon ( Groenendael )
Obedience Champion

Vanistica French Eclipse ( Groenendael )
Obedience Champion



note that both the Bonvivant and Vanistica Kennels have been also top show kennels for their varieties for many years

you are right that BSD have not excelled in the PD element of working trials or the emphasis on man work in mondioring etc sports - this does not mean however that they are not true working dogs - after all Border Collies also do not excell in Working Trials, Schutzhund or Mondioring, would you also class them as not 'real' working dogs ?

I dont consider agility or obedience collies as working collies either, its a great sport for a pet dog but a working collie is one who is bred for and doing the job the breed were designed for - herding sheep
a side effect of that amazing work ability and agility is they can excel at these sports

therefore, by your logic, the definition of a working BSD is one who also works sheep NOT one who takes part in Shutzhund or Mondioring which are simply hobbies and no greater test of the breed's working ability than any other active canine hobby.

Smokey's statement :

is only true for the small number whose chosen hobby is the Patrol Dog level of Working Trials, Schutzhund or Mondioring,

I could make exactly the same statement with my own hobby in mind " that serious competitors do not select Sport line stock "...and it would be true - it all depends what the competitor is serious about !!

Hm Deu (VDH) Ch Tansterne Fun(ISDS 143339) SchH3, IPO3, FH ZB "Vorzüglich", KKl. 1, HD 1

Breed & Schutzhund dog bred to work sheep !!!

Depends, I havent looked into the breed, but if they were origonally used to work sheep and they are still used in their tradiotional role then no, to me those things do not make them good working dogs - it makes them good at their hobby

If they were bred and used for duel purposes - like it looks like the GSD was being given to the army and police by the founder then it could be argued that they are doing their origonal job and therefore the trails are a test of their working ability

Personaly, going back to the BC, for me a working BC is one who works at his job day in day out herding sheep
trials are a nice way to see other dogs and to compeate, but a breeder who is breeding and training dogs only to win trials and has sheep only to train the dogs to do well at the trials again imo do not have working dogs

I have no idea where you get this idea from? Border Colies HAVE and DO excel in Working Trials in both TD and PD and there many many WT Ch in Border Collies to prove it, multiple ticket winners in fact.

Also interesting to see (which those who compete in Agility will soon) that some of the top Agility people (ie who have been in world teams) have now gone over to the "dark side" and got puppies from Working Lines.

Incorrect, again I am afraid.

There are Working Bred Malinois who compete at all levesl in Working Trials (after all it is ESSENTIAL for dogs to have qualified CDex UDex and WD Open before they can compete in PD Open and CDex UDex and WDex before they can compete in PD Championship.

This is in order to demonstrate that they have sufficient control over their dogs to compete in PD.

The Malinois in WT also compete in the TD stake all of which are WORKING bred not SHOW bred.

The Groens, Tervs are conspicuous by their absence, although there have been one or two Tervs who got TDex but never shone. Show bred ones again.

Yes I have been hearing in America for years now that 'sport' breeders are having to bring in working blood every few generations because the sports ability is being lost by only breeding for sports, breeding for a good working dog often gives a better sports dog

I would love to see Collies doing workign trials I love to see any dog do something well that is out of the normal for the breed

WT Ch Stardell Alula
WT Ch Tytri Roy
WT Ch Glenalpine Phoebe of Stardell
WT Ch Waggerland Floss
WT Ch Waggerland Dilemma


There are tens and tens more, these are just a couple off the top of my (very tired) head, (Border Collies)

Yes there are loads and loads of collies doing well in wt. would be interesting to know how many purely show line border collies have gone on to do well in their chosen discipline (other than showing) compared to work/sport line (as usually sports lines descend from working line dogs).

The majority (but not all) of show line bred collies lack true drive and work ethic in comparison to work/sport line.