Are cockers named after the cocking bird? Discussions

Quick invent a new designer crossbreed and cash in on the name!!!!

From experience they seem to be few and far between, theres 4 here with no bowed front legs, and we rarely see them through rescue about 4 in the last 4 years that have had bowed front legs, and we rehome 2 - 300 a year, i also know loads of other people with multple spaniels that also don't have queen anne legs, plus the ones i go shooting with, so i would really like to meet some of these alledged long, queen anne legged working springers cos i aint seeing em

well you only have to look around this forum to find a few, can think of two of the top of my head.

All i'm saying is not in the circles i move in

Nice dog but certainly not symmetrically built, compact, strong, merry, active. Highest on leg and raciest in build of all British land Spaniels. Which is what, for me, makes the difference between a Cocker and a Springer. It is the reason the breed split after all, but I don't suppose the working people really care about reasons, just so long as the trophies keep on comin' right?!

Again, go back to my original post. I've never said a FT dog can't do both. What I've actually said is:

A FT dog, if trained solely for FTs, will be no good as a gundog (Rory Major also reiterated this!)

FTs have changed breeds in their conformation in order to be flashy etc to win trials.

As with showing, FT people will breed from the dog/type that is winning the most. As such breed type goes out of the window as everyone wants the latest type in their lines in order to win more. As such those who only want to work their dogs feel the need to look for Champions in the lines (possibly to make the pups more saleable) and the breed type continues to dissapear.

In essence, working breeds are just as guilty (if not more when you consider the equal amount of inbreeding and almost total lack of health tests) as show breeders for ruining the breed.

I don't deal with Cockers, they are of no interest to me. I know of ESS breeders that solely trial, but again I am not about to name kennels (although those in Springers will know who I mean!)

This is the point I (and Rory Major) am making. Training solely for trials (a predictable and short space of working in a time sense) will produce a dog that looks amazing for 15-30 minutes of hunting etc, because that is all that is required. Train a FTCH bred dog as a working gundog first, then introduce trialling and you'll have a multi purpose dog. My major problem (aside from the above) is what the competition side of trialling has done to the breed. Sheepdog work is essentially predictable, most WSDs will come across what is shown in the trials. Gundog work is so much more unpredictable, sometimes there won't be game for over an hour or two (or three if you're really unlucky or working on a truly wild rough shoot) so the dog has to have stamina and learn patience in order to do it's job 100% all day, rather than just 30 minutes, if you see what I mean. The wild rough shoot I partake in can be very sparse on occasion meaning the dogs have to be 100% focused from 8:00 til sundown in the winter which can easily equal 7 hours sometimes 4 days in a row.

As for those that have taken offence to my comments on the working type of gundogs, welcome to my world as a show dog owner. Not nice when people pass comment on your dogs without even knowing them, is it.

For those that are truly interested in what an English Springer should be then try looking into "Ch. Dry Toast" and more recently "Gone For Tea". These are two ESS that make my heart sing!!!

Sheepdog work is predictable?? really?? In a few weeks on a hill farm I saw way way more than you ever see in sheepdog trails
The first day we met the shephard I remember it was because we called him because one of the lambs had got out of the field with its mum and was stuck in another field

The guy came over in his quadbike, told the dog to go - without even knowing what the problem was
His dog saw what the problem was, took a wide berth out of the field so not to freak out the lamb who had never seen a dog yet
Figured out the best path to free the lamb and send it to the gap so it could be with its mum - then came back to the guy without a word from him

Later in the day the vet needed to have a look at one of the rams, the same dog who gently worked the lamb was now sent to a giant angry ram, faced up to him, charged and tipped him on his back and held him down till the farmer got a hold

In one day I saw loads that I have never seen on 1 man and his dog

In comparison to the work of a working gundog? Yes, sheepdog work and the resulting trials are predictable, that's why sheepdogs remain unchanged and gundogs dont. ;-)

You can't replicate the unpredictable (ie the working gundog field), that was my point.

You send a sheepdog out and he will work sheep, you send a gundog out to flush game and he might, but then he might not......

Regarding queen ann legs - we have a springer who has them, only slightly though. However, she is the only one I have seen in the flesh. I wonder if it's ocurring in a certain area of the country - great dog is bred lots and lots and then the line is bred lots and lots and you have a lot of dogs with queen ann legs? I've seen hundreds of springers but only ever seen ours with those type of legs.

Regarding trialling - I have been on shoots with people who do trial their springers and they do act differently to everyone else. They change dogs more than your average beater/picker up, who will use one dog all day - assume it is to do with getting all the dogs out? They are certainly more stricter than your average beater on their dog - although, I am not saying that the average beaters dog is out of control, just the trialler expects more of their dog (not saying this is a bad thing at all).

In the grouse counting circles, it's the same. The triallers take out more dogs than we will do. We will use one dog for a count, whereas, the trialler, can have 4 or 5. Again, more stricter than me as I just want to get on with the job and count the grouse.

Helen

Oh look, yet more triallers who also work their dogs!

Well yes the trails are predictable in that there are sheep and a course of things they have to do
But of course people who do sheepdog trails would dissagree with you that it was predictable as different sheep react to different dogs differently

But in a way I am agreeing with you in that sheepdog trails only test a tiny amount of what the actual job of a sheepdog is
So I can see that that could well be the case to an extent in other breeds working trails
Personally when I am talking about a working dog I am talking about a dog who works at the job they were bred for - not that is bred for and only does trails for trophies
But then again on this thread I am not seeing anyone like that - everyone is talking about actually taking their dogs out on real shoots


Some questions about the queen anne legs
Does it cause any pain/increased chance of injury?
Does it provide any benifit? turning speed/power?
Is it in just a few lines or is it location dependent? Does this build benifit the dogs in certain areas of the country?

We took Rosie (our queen ann leg springer) when she was about 7 and worked her for 3 hard seasons without injury. I can't see how it would have any benefit at all, although it certainly didn't hinder Rosie.

Rosie originally came from Wales and we took her on when we were in Northumberland.

Helen

Do you know my dog? How do you know she is not symmetrically build, strong, compact, merry, active and racy? Interesting how you can judge all of those things from a photograph!

She measures 18 inches at the withers which I believe is of average height for a springer bitch according to the breed standard. She is well angulated with perfect muscle tone which gives her the speed and stamina needed for a working dog. As for 'racy in build' - you are joking aren't you ??? - she will outrun any show or dual purpose springer without even coming out of 2nd gear.

As for health testing and inbreeding, according to Mate Select her COI is 6.4 % which is better than the breed average. Her elbow scores are 0:0, hip scores 3:3, she has a clear eye certificate, and is DNA tested Fucocidosis, PRA cord 1 and PFK free. I hope that is enough to satisfy your critical eye. But I doubt it, somehow you seem to think that because I trial my dog I am out to ruin the breed.

Yep it is all well and good claiming that field trials are ruining the wcs as a breed (although then admitting you know nothing about them?) if people are only trialling and not working - fair enough. But who is? We haven't found ONE person yet who does!

you working people and your complete disregard for breed standards and health eh!