Hello to all dog lovers - GSDs, many questions! Questions

I've obviously got the wrong end of the stick. I thought Schutzhund required a high defense drive in order to succeed in the protection work. Does this imply that a high defense drive is not required/desirable in any circumstance? Sorry if I'm being dense but this is all new to me. Can you recommend any reading I could do to educate myself?

Many dogs can and are competed with purely in prey, they have little defence drive.

I dog with high defence drive may not be the best option for a pet or competition dog (although very useful on the streets).

All dogs possess defence drive however in most cases it is never seen and in many breeds it is naturally very low.

It is a big subject (when discussing Schutzhund) but this short extract may be of interest.

http://www.schutzhundvillage.com/drives.html

Oh well thats a pity, although he doesn't seem to be a true long coat, more of a rough coat (a bit like wire wool but very soft to the touch). I remember both my short coats also shedding constantly, it didnt seem to matter whether it was summer or winter.
This is my pups grandfather Kai in action, very similar looking dog but short coated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f0F4nQtxvQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=351s

The Dam is - March Promise (lives in Mobberley, Cheshire)

Parents
Abben Appollo of Rockforce
Gibfield Mikka

Grand Parents
Abben Brecan
Knuston Kute of Abben

Minki Goes for Gold
Gibfield Ceri of Maxsamben

Gt. Grand Parents
Grrenveldt Jago in Nyrvana
Abben Kelly

Venga Black Cavalier of Knuston
Hanzara’s Majestic Jem of Knuston

Xaro Vom Grundel of Dunmondaidh (IMP)
Drishane Lady

Key Von Der Wienerau (IMP)
Xambie Vom Wittelsbacher Schloss (IMP)

I was just doodling around on www.pedigreedatabase.com , going back through her pedigree and from Gt. Gt. Grandma Ossie vom Wittelsbacher Schloss I managed to get all the way back to Horand von Grafrath 1895.:-o

"Horand embodied for the enthusiasts of that time the fulfillment of their fondest dreams. He was big for that period, between 24" and 24 1/2", even for the present day a good medium size, with powerful frame, beautiful lines, and a nobly formed head. Clean and sinewy in build, the entire dog was one live wire. His character was on a par with his exterior qualities; marvelous in his obedient fidelity to his master, and above all else, the straightforward nature of a gentleman with a boundless zest for living. Although untrained in puppy hood, nevertheless obedient to the slightest nod when at this master's side; but when left to himself, the maddest rascal, the wildest ruffian and incorrigible provoker of strife. Never idle, always on the go; well disposed to harmless people, but no cringer, mad about children and always in love. What could not have been the accomplishments of such a dog if we, at that time, had only had military or police service training? His faults were the failings of his upbringing, never of his stock. He suffered from a superfluity of unemployed energy, for he was in Heaven when someone was occupied with him and was then the most tractable of dog."

~Captain von Stephanitz
Originator of the breed
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1208

Thanks again for the info. I've had a look at the article you suggested and it's a very informative introduction but as you say it's a big subject which I'll endeavour to learn more about.

In the mean time more questions :? : Please correct me if I've got it wrong but when we say that working dogs have high drive are we talking about prey/ defense etc. or simply about the desire to work? If a dog has a high prey drive for example, is this detrimental in ordinary life in the world, if, as the article suggests, it can be linked to fighting drive? (not to mention the fact that we live in an area that makes its living by sheep farming and there are often incidents of sheep worrying). I understand that training can control/mitigate any behaviour but if you have no 'use' for these drives then it looks to me like you will be constantly fighting against the dog's nature in trying to curb them. Again I ask these questions because while I understand that different breeders may strive for different levels of drive in their dogs and all dogs differ in character even within a litter, I want to make sure that a WL dog is right for me.

When the term "high drive" is used it generally denotes a desire to be busy, in whatever field you choose to participate in.

A Border Collie often has high drive. Does it need to herd a flock of sheep? No.

A cocker spaniel often has high drive. Does it need to be worked to the gun? No.

Prey drive, ie the desire to chase (loosely speaking) is redirected into balls, frisbees, in play or running around an agility course etc.

There is no need to CURB such drives.

I have an extremely high drive dog, it has never looked at a sheep and he sees them quite a lot.

So high drive is not an issue IF you have the skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience to channel them constructively.

Thanks the dam is not workline, predominately pets until you back to the imports who are WG Show Line, hope you havent been misled thinking your pup was from workinglines, enjoy her
re tracing back; due to level of inbreeding to establish the breed they will all go back to the crossbreed Horand

that was a beautiful video. great, great dog.

Oh yes, really enjoyed that video, great to see a real dog in action, and enjoying it all to the full, they just love to be "doing" don't they, busy, busy, buzyyyyyy dogs! Loving the pat he got half way through from his owner, that's what I like to see;-) Thanks for sharing that

i pick Zak. i love this bench pic. he is my favourite. hi Zak. hi Moobli.
it reminds me of this picture of my Max.

As ever, Smokeybear has put how I feel about genetics far more eloquently than I ever could

I live on a sheep farm My husband is Farm Manager/Head Shepherd on a large sporting estate and is responsible for 2500 Blackface ewes and lambs. My dogs are all trained from a young age not to chase sheep. My working line came to me at 8 months and is just starting to show a wee bit of interest now (7 months later). So I am currently persuading him on a daily basis that sheep really aren't to be touched.

In all honesty, out of all of my GSDs, my WGSL was the one who showed the most interest in sheep, but he is now safe around them.

My WL is, in the main, an ACTIVE pet and companion. He is wonderful in this role. I think the emphasis should be on ACTIVE though - as he is with me all day, and likes to be involved in whatever I am doing.

Gotta dash out for a walk now - but will reply more when I get back

Lovely photo of your lad, Max. He was a stunner

Thank you very much Yes he is a joy and I am very proud of him. I am so happy I took a chance on him, as I couldn't imagine life without him now.

The one thing I have noticed about him (and not sure whether it is a WL or just an individual thing) is that he is VERY ball driven. If allowed, he will badger you with his ball all day long - so I have to limit the times he has his toy. He is also quite mouthy with it, and as I have young children, I do not allow them to play ball with him at all - and yet they happily play ball with my other dogs, GSDs and collie. He has no malice in him whatsoever, but is just ball obsessed.

Hi Moobli
How exactly are you persuading him to "avoid sheep". I am surrounded by farms with sheep, cattle and horses and my puppy is intent on chasing anything that moves (obviously i don't let him) so i have to be watchful at all times. Any tips would be appreciated.

Hi Wildmoor.
No not misled, the dam is owned by a family friend so I was well aware she was from WG show, however the sire is full working line so hopefully his Y DNA will shine through
My puppy, at the young age of 4 months, is showing exactly the same characteristics of his father/grandfather, both in looks and character. He is so friendly to people he meets, no fear or nervousness. Now all i have to do is train him, doh

Re. Horand, i thought that might be the case, but was just fascinated by the data available on pedigreedatabase to be able to back track to 1895, just with several mouse clicks.
Brilliant

I do a lot of obedience training in and around the sheep. He perfectly understands the "no" command and so if he even attempts to eye them, he is told "no" in a firm voice. I also walk him through the flocks in front of our cottage on a regular basis with my other dogs, and I think he sees that they aren't interested in them, so he isn't either.

Is your pup interested in a toy? If so, you could try training him as near to sheep as you can get, and reward him for his focus on you and good behaviour with a real exciting game with his favourite toy.

I have had a dedicated sheep chaser in the past though (she came to me like that) and it was impossible unfortunately to ever get her to stop :-( I was a less experienced dog owner back then though and didn't have daily access to sheep like I have now. The only real solution with a dog like her is to manage her behaviour and keep her on a lead at any time there might even be the possibility of sheep.

However, your pup is young and so you should be able to train him to stop if you start early enough.

Thanks again smokeybear - you've been such a help explaining things to me I hope I don't appear to be too useless :? but if I don't ask the questions I'll never know the answers! I expect there will be many more daft sounding questions coming your way soon! Thanks again for being patient

I think, thanks to all the help and advice from the kind folk on this forum, I've definitely decided on a WL dog. I feel quite happy that I can provide the right environment for a busy dog who likes to be doing, doing, doing and I'm definitely looking forward to the challenge and fun of bringing on this type of puppy. Having seen photos of your lovely sable dogs and watched a lot of video of dogs working on YouTube I've even come to the conclusion that the sable colouring is quite stunning, I'd even go as far as to say I prefer it

I've had a similar experience was Moobli. I have one dog who is a real problem around sheep and requires constant vigilance and then some. She has been know to climb down a near vertical 20 foot bank, swim 50+ yards up river and climb up the same 20 foot bank in order to get into the sheep field behind our property. This was after spending a fortune on hedges, ditches and double fencing !! She's never done any actual harm to a sheep but just loves to chase them. Not good for neighbourly relations. Our younger dog, on the other hand, has been trained around sheep all her life. She doesn't appear to be particularly interested in them but whenever she starts to look at them I just call her to me and engage her attention with her ball or other fun games. That way I'm far more interesting than the sheep and she knows that coming to me is more rewarding than anything else she may have had in mind. However, I'm not sure that this would have worked with my other dog who is sheep obsessed.

We're certainly active I think. I work from home so I'm here all day with the dogs. I'm also able work my own hours which means I can be out with the dogs during the day - the downside is that I'm often still at my desk late at night! Typically we're out for a long walk first thing in the morning, about 1.5 - 2 hours. Then after lunch each dog gets one on one on one time with me training/playing about a half an hour each. Then out for another long walk at the end of the afternoon. I also tend to take one, some or all of them into town with with me for a change of scenery. Additionally, the youngsters do both agility and obedience twice a week - Dido is now semi-retired! Is this active enough for a WL dog?