Hello to all dog lovers - GSDs, many questions! Questions

Hello especially to all you gsd people. I’ve just started researching for my next gsd puppy. I’ve been reading the gsd forums and they seems to be full of very knowledgeable and experienced folk so I’m hoping that some of you will be able to help with my questions.

I’ve always had long coat pet bred gsds (although always from reputable breeders who have carried out health checks) who have been sweet and loving companions and although they have all been to pet obedience I’ve never wanted to do much in the way of competition or other work with them and they have all been content with 2 long walks a day and playing in the garden. My youngest, who is nearly 3, proved to be a different beast altogether, being feisty, opinionated and generally much harder work which means that I’ve put lots more work into her and she’s rewarded me many times over. We now compete in Obedience and Agility and we’re an inseparable team.

The result is that I would like to move on from the family pet type dog to something with more drive and willingness to work. I’m also thinking about getting a short hair – we live in the Brecon Beacons and they spend their whole time soaking wet, wallowing in mud, or bog surfing :? so I’m hoping a short coat will be easier to maintain.

The questions:
First and foremost I want a healthy dog with a good back end. From what I understand (some?) show breeders are starting to move on from the extreme sloping back but it’s difficult to tell what the dogs actually look like from their ‘stacked’ poses. So first question: can anyone recommend show (or show type) breeders who don’t produce the over exaggerated sloping back? I like the show dog look, red/gold/tan with the black saddle and from the front end they’re fine but I won’t sacrifice health for looks.

Secondly all the german type show dogs have SchH qualifications, some to quite a high level. Does this really mean that these dogs are fit (mentally and physically) to work? I understand that any litter can produce a variety of different characters in the pups but are the SchH qualifications in the parents a good guide to potential of the pups? Apologies to show people, this is a genuine question as I’m new to this and I don’t mean to offend anyone.

The next possibility is to go for a working line dog and from what I’ve read, I don’t have any worries about taking on a dog from working lines. I’m looking for something with drive and trainability and I believe I can do justice to the intelligence and drive of a working dog and provide a good lifestyle for one. The only problem is I really prefer the black/tan markings to the dark sable that’s prevalent in the working lines. I assume this is due to the introduction of the DDR and Czech dogs but looking back at pedigrees it seems that in the past working dogs were black/tan and there still seems to be a large number of black/tan dogs in police work – although they do seem to be being taken over by the DDR type, (and Malis!). Are there any working line breeders who still produce the ‘classic’ black and tan dogs or have they all gone over to the dark sable type. Again I don’t want to sacrifice health for looks and I feel that the best way of getting a really healthy dog may be to go for the working lines so I’m happy to learn to love the sables.

Finally, I’ve learned from reading this forum that there is such a thing as an English Obedience type of gsd. I’ve never come across this before and would like to find out more. Does anyone know of any breeders who are specifically producing these?

Oh - one final final thing! Girl or boy? I've always had girls and I'm thinking about a boy this time but there seems to be a feeling that boys are more dominant/aggressive/harder. I'm not sure from my experience this is necessarily true but I was wondering what other people think.

Thanks so much for taking the time to read this - sorry it's a bit of an epic! Looking forward to hearing what people have to say.

It sounds like a WL may be the better choice for you. I personally love the dark sable and look forward to someday owning a WL GSD.

I would steer clear of English pet/obedience lines. In my experience it's those with the higher hip scores etc and the dogs with a 'sloping' back are generally better bred for health, although i'm not so keen on this look. But when it comes to breeders and lines, I find myself a bit overwhelmed lol! There are plenty of knowledgeable people here who will point you in the right direction!

English"Obedience"GSDs are generally longcoated GSDs bred from dogs that do obedience. They are not particularly bred to the breed standard & are no better at obedience than a normal coated GSD from dogs that do obedience.

The only GSDs that are bred solely for what is between their ears are the Continetal Working line GSDs, their are people breeding them in this country & most of them are either from direct imports from Europe or from the offspring of same.

They have to have an excellent temperament becuase they are aimed at working VPG(Vielseitigkeitsprufung fur Gebrauchshunde-Versatility Test for Working ( Utility) Dogs) & dogs with poor temperaments/characters are rejected both for competition & for breeding from. They have a full gammit of health tests done before being bred from, they are also usually assessed for suitability for breeding.

They do have an lot of work drive(some will call it prey drive, but IMHO it is the desire to work)

A typical German Working Line breeder in Germany

I would agree with Dyane, there is really no such thing as an "Obedience" line GSD!

As you are in Wales might I suggest that you visit a Schutzhund Club like Severnside which has several knowledgeable members some of whom breed with great success.

Ron White for example of the Kennel Name Argonne, a very successful affix in Schutzhund.

http://severnsideschutzhund.co.uk/

You can then meet dogs of the various member and discuss what you would like in more detail face to face?

HTH

Thank you for your advice. Will definitely contact Severnside with a view to going down to meet some of their members, dogs and humans, and chat face to face. Hadn't occurred to me to do this!!

It sounds to me as though what I've heard called the English Obedience type is really what I have already. I'd just never heard the term before and I have come across gsds at obedience shows that were 'bred for obedience' but looked (and acted!) very much like my girls.

Another question... it seems that owners of working line dogs mostly do Schutzhund which is something I can't really see myself getting involved in (Severnside is my nearest club and is the best part of a 2 hour drive away). Is there anyone out there who does competitive obedience and/or agility with their WLS?

I do Working Trials and Schutzhund with my WLGSD

I would really like to do WT but again there are no clubs in my area - or in all of Wales as far as I can tell.

Gail Gweysn Price does WT Training and there are several competitors who travel from there

http://www.midwalesdogtraining.co.uk/Puppies.htm

I thought she only hosted the occasional WT weekend course with e.g. Moira Rogerson? Will contact her and see what she has going on but again she's a very long way from us - one of the disadvantages of living in the middle of nowhere! Thanks again for the info.

Hi and welcome to the forum. I have three GSDs.

One is what you would term an English "obedience line". There is such a thing in this country, although I agree with the others that these type of dogs are no better at competitive obedience than any other GSD - however, a particular "type" has appeared from obedience dogs being bred to other obedience dogs over the years. So I do know what you are talking about She is a longcoated, black and gold bitch. We trained at a competitive obedience club for many years and competed a couple of times only, as I was doing it more for fun than competition.

My middle GSD is a longhaired, black/gold West German Showline dog. He has plenty of oomph and enjoys obedience and particularly tracking.

My youngest GSD is a standard coated dark sable dog, from mainly DDR working lines. I have only had him since December (he is 14 months old) and he is already excelling at obedience and I have started to do a couple of short tracks with him. I am also quite interested in training him for working trials - but time and distance will dictate (I also live in the middle of nowhere ).

Personally, and from the type of dog you say you are after, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a working line GSD to you. Mine is an active companion first and foremost, and is as happy to be the family pet as all my other GSDs (if not more so!).

Do you have an active lifestyle? Do you have plenty of time to spend with and on your dog?

If the answer is yes, then go for it - you won't be disappointed

One word of caution though - as with any dog, make sure you look into the lines and get advice. Some WL dogs are bred to be extreme in drive for dog sports and may not settle as well as others.

Be honest with any breeders you speak to and explain what you want to do with your dog - and then they will be able to advise you on a particular litter, or a particular pup from a litter etc.

I adore the dark sable dogs, but if you prefer the black/tan - have a look at
http://www.wkd-uk.com/Breeding/OurDogs.aspx

Is that the type of colouring you like? Not all working line GSDs are sable or bicolour, but you won't find the same black/red colour in workers that you see in the West German show lines.

If the black/red (black mask and saddle etc) is the look you are after then there are show bred dogs who also have the necessary drive to compete in agility and obedience.

Good luck in your search

Do you have any piccies of your other GSDs? We like piccies

It's certainly beginning to look like it's going to be a working line dog for me next but I'm in no hurry and have much research yet to do. This is the first time I've looked in to having anything other than a long coat pet type and I've discovered a whole world full of complexities that I had no idea even existed!
Will definitely post some pics of my girls but at the moment at the Exeter open show for the weekend competing with my youngster Phoebe. (Isn't technology great!!?) Poor thing she's all black long coat and is suffering in the heat. She's a trooper though and is at the moment running second in pre beginner and third in beginners not at her best today but I'm very pleased with her effort all things considered!

I also have a 'pet bred' rescue GSD and a working line, and it sounds like a WL is just what you are looking for.

I did Schutzhund with my working line but have now moved to Wales and can't get to a club but he still seems perfectly happy with lots of exercise and fun training. I work for a personal protection dog centre so he will still get some bitework but not the same regimented training, but I'm sure he will be just fine.

Would love to see pics too, your girl sounds great!

Interesting stuff this, but all the different "lines" and "types" do make it confusing. Perhaps you could all provide some photo examples of the WL / Show and English/German lines you describe?

This is my puppy's male line pedigree, along with a photo of his dad. Please tell me how would you describe his line and type?



DORNHOLZ CERBERUS AT ROCKFORCE
DOG, Born April 15, 2010
Kennel Club Registered
Hip Score: 6 : 8 = 14 Elbows: 0 : 0 = 0
Haemophilia: ‘A’ Normal

PARENTS
VONGALANBERG KAI
Hips 4:2=6 Elbows 0:0=0
PEPNICK IRON MAIDEN VON
DORNHOLZ
Hips 4:3=7 Elbows 0:0=0 Sable

GRAND PARENTS
MANUS VAN TIEKERHOOK
Hips ‘A’ Fast Normal IMP Black
VONGALANBERG AMBER
Hips 6:8=14 Elbows 0:0=0
ZIDANE VAN’T LEEFDAALHOF
Hips ‘A’ Belgian
JENSIL INDDY AT PEPNICK
Hips 2:2=4 Elbows 0:0=0 Sable

GREAT GRAND PARENTS
NICK VOM HEILIGENBOSCH
Hips ‘A’ Normal
TAILA VAN TIEKERHOOK
Hips Normal
ZIDANE VAN’T LEEFDAALHOF
Hips ‘A’ Belgian
CURIE GALAN NALAG
Hips 4:3=7 IMP
UFO VAN GUY’S HOF
Hips ‘A’ Belgian Black
VAYA VAN’T LEEFDAALHOF
Hips ‘A’ Belgian
TOM VAN’T LEEFDAALHOF
Hips ‘A’ Belgian
PEPNICK FOL THAI
Hips 11:5=16

The male line in your dog is working lines. However, looking at the photo of your dog's sire, he looks to have pet lines and/or English obedience line in there too. He doesn't have the "look" of a working line dog.

Who is your dog's dam and what is the female line?

Here is my English obedience line (Foxfold/Sorumour)



And my working line (mainly DDR breeding/Nyrvana) on the left and my West German show line on the right (Kazeti)

Sorry for the delay, my puppy was desperate for a walk in the woods and i wanted to go early before it got too hot.

Thanks for the photos of your beautiful dogs. I don't want to hijack Lupilu's thread, so apologies, but I just thought it might help all of us to understand the differences in WL/Show and German/English etc

My puppys grandad can be seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f0F4nQtxvQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=351s

His Dams side is as follows (Some Nyrvana in there too):

Dam - March Promise (Nelly)

Grand Parents

Abben Apollo of Rockforce
Gibfield Mikka

Gt Grand Parents

Abben Brecan
Knuston Kute of Abben

Minki Goes for Gold
Gibfield Ceri of Maxsamben

Gt. Gt Grand Parents

Grrenveldt Jago in Nyrvana
Abben Kelly

Venga Black Cavalier of Knuston
Hanzaras Majestic Gem of Knuston

Xaro Vom Grundel of Dunmondaidh (IMP)
Drishane Lady

Key Von Der Wienerau (IMP)
Xambie Vom Wittelsbacher Schloss (IMP)

Gt Gt Gt Grand Parents

Jeck Vom Noricum Schh3, FH Kkl 1
Orga Von Arminius (IMP)

Big Ben of Abben
Warrenways Fame of Abben

Vengar Solar
Shepherdsway Jade

Hanwals Rebel
Princess Kazazean

Raps Vom Preussentor
Ute vom Kaltenwangen

Hotline Iodo at Graystorms
Alexandras Seco Beauty

Hitchcock Vom Allamo
Xila Von Der Wienerau

Odin Von Tannenmeise
Ossie Vom Wittelsbacher Schloss

I know the owners and breeders of the Dornholz affix and Pepnick Iron Maiden also the owner of Von Galanberg Kai, and many of the dogs in that line.

Not much help here but my friends family has 3 GSDs. 2 from kesyra (5 overall) and the most recent from Marinita. Marinita say they produce champ, pet and working GSDs. Moobli would know more as she suggested them

Their last pup has a lot of drive, much more so than the others. She is quick to learn and motivated, at just a few months old she picked up general obedience about 5 times quicker than my buhund does. She would probably do really well in agility or similar I think. Anyway, might be the sort of pup that would suit your situation if you didn't go down the pure WL route.

Anyway here is the youngest Marinita (about 5 months in the pic here I think)




And with the oldest Kesyra (about 12 now)


Good luck in your descision

Not seen any dogs with the Kesyra or Marinita affix in Working Trials or Schutzhund that I can recall.

No I don't think Kesyra do. Marinita say they produce pet, champ and working dogs, but I know that when the family were looking for a pet GSD and not to compete anyway, but the puppy certainly has a lot more drive than their previous Kesyra GSDs.

They are good breeders if the OP decides not to go down the show line route though.