Different types of GSD Discussions

Oh, I see! My bad

And yes, the last German show line makes me cringe... I would not be surprised to hear that the image was manipulated? Hopefully!!!

or, maybe the wind was up,

I knew I would forget one type or another I can't believe it was the Czech dogs though. Love this type too.

(From the Nyrvana site)

They were bred in communist Czechoslovakia as state working dogs. These dogs were mostly developed from DDR lines and are essentially the same.

Before the revolution in Czechoslovakia and the fall of their communist government in 1989, German Shepherds bred in Czechoslovakia were primarily working dogs used for the protection of their borders. What is exceptional is that their breeding was done in just one kennel founded in 1955, which was owned by the Czechoslovakian Army's Border Patrol. The dogs used for breeding were acquired mostly from the East Germany (DDR) and the breeding program focused on solid nerves, working ability, strong bones and dark pigmentation. They are also the straight backed, sturdy type untouched by the exaggerations of the Western Show world.

Would be interested to hear from your side of the pond, how much health testing goes on, do breeders of ALL types health test, do they ALL see it as a necessity, or is it the same as here, (and not just GSD) that when a breed is split, health testing is the least consideration for many breeders of the working lines.

Excellent, I am pleased you are going to stick around. I have no experience whatsoever of the American show line, other than those I have seen in photos/video. They are definitely not my taste.

I believe my other breed, the border collie, also conjures up fierce debate across the pond, as well as here.

I should have clarified - I meant that when I hear the term "German working lines", I don't strictly think of West German working lines but rather the DDR/East German lines as well. Was not trying to lump the two lines into being one and the same, there are many differences I have observed between them. I was referring to the words alone

Unfortunately, the old DDR working dog characteristics are becoming harder and harder to find among the lines here in the US, at least. Many dogs being diluted for the pet market who want a "big boned black sable". I have a great deal of interest in the lines, though, and look forward to speaking to more breeders about finding dogs of the old DDR type. I don't believe there is a breeder in the US I would turn to if I wanted those lines.

I'm not sure what you consider to be a small consideration - I believe that breeders of working lines can be consistently relied upon to all have minimal health testing done on their breeding stock. Almost everyone will x-ray hips, and some will do elbow x-rays as well, and beyond that, only a handful of breeders will test eyes, heart, MDR1, and degenerative myelopathy.

The working line breeders see health testing as just as much of a necessity as the show line breeders do. The ones who do the least amount of health testing are, of course, the pet market breeders, and then it would be the American show line breeders. Most German show line breeders will have their dogs' hips x-rayed and evaluated via the German system, and to see anything beyond that is not very common.

Here in the US it is common to have "contracts" guaranteeing that the puppy someone buys will grow up to have passing hips when x-rayed at 2 years of age (with the offer of an additional puppy or of some money back should the dog not pass).

I plan on it! The American lines are not my preference, either, and far from it truth be told. Even my friend (who shows/owns them) has frequent complaints about them, and she is a very honest person about all aspects of the type and breed. I have learned a lot from her, especially about conformation and the show lines.

Border Collies are probably the second highest debated breed If someone steps into the Border Collie forums, better not mention their dog is anything BUT working farm bred, and if their dog is any color BUT black and white, the dog must have been bred especially for color!!

Ah I see

So are the working lines (or variations on) filtering into the pet market over there then (as you say people are wanting a "big boned black sable"?). How are the breeders diluting the characteristics? Are working/show line ever mixed in the US?

There was a chap on here a while ago (from Alpine K9 I believe) who imports DDR and Czech dogs in the US. (http://www.alpinek9.com/) He didn't stick around for long unfortunately.

My dog is a Zidane grandson.

In a sort of stacked pose..






He has DDR on his mum's side.

Not sure where Jackbox is getting her information from regarding health testing and GSDs, however from what you have said above I would suggest that the US working line breeders are in line with the UK ones. Hip-scoring is almost always done, with elbow scoring becoming more popular. However, not many test over and above.

Many of the top WG showline breeders in the UK are at the forefront of health testing, but still have problems of soundness and conformation within their stock.

The pet market do the least health testing over here too, and there is still an issue of nervous-aggressive temperaments in too many GSDs.

Handsome is as handsome does for me.
I started out with a traditional Rin Tin Tin type. Black and tan, smallish, agile as a cat, short coat. They were proper dogs!
I`ve now got a medium coat short-legged type (alsation I suppose) who I find beautiful and a great big long coated fluffy black one. Neither of whom would get a second look (well maybe a disapproving one) from `line` peeps.
But they`re GSDs in all their glory despite that. ;-)

Haha - well I am ok, as all our dogs are farm bred, work sheep for a living and are either black/white or tricoloured

It sounds as though you have dipped into the US BC forums too ;-)

The Czech GSD's are my favourites, but then, I'm quite partial to most of the other types too. I'd love a working line Shepherd when I've got more dog experience under my belt.

I'd love to know what Anton has in him - I'd hazard a guess that he's a combination of English Showline and pet-breeding, based on his body.

Well one of the places would be your information on your own breeder, who dismisses health testing on her working line dogs

This thread has grown since I was last on

Which "type" is the most popular in the UK?

Helen

I would say the 'pet' type which is mishmash of lines really with no thought being given into the breeding usually.

Second I would guess is German Showline.

Absolutely Claire! We all have the best GSD(s) at home with us. That is just how it should be

I would agree, although don't know for sure.

West German Showline for me: stunning dog!

It might be unfair of me to say that the working lines have been trickling into the pet market as of now... but there exists a growing demand and supply of dogs with no specifications other than German Shepherd-like in appearance, heavy in bone density, and black sable in coat color. Preferably, they will say, low energy, low drive, low key, and all around friendly, without an aggressive bone in their body. Perhaps not yet what would be thought of as a pet market bred dog, but they are developing into a niche of their own, rather than being incorporated strongly into the current pet lines.

Yes, they are. My dog's own breeder does this, and I have known widely highly regarded breeders in the United States do this as well. The breeder of my dog's dam in Europe has done this, too, I believe. Not remarkably common to say the least, partially due to the nature of working types and show types and the goals/visions of the individual breeder... but also partially due to the stigma attached to each type, by the exhibitors and enthusiasts of the other line (show line people say working lines are this and that, and working line people think show lines are this and that).

Typically it is the working line breeders that will incorporate a show line dog or two into their breedings/breeding stock... show lines with functional structure and good work ethic. I don't believe the breeders I know of made the decision in order to improve conformation, but rather, because they saw the dog as a good German Shepherd Dog, and were not inclined to dismiss them due to breed type alone. One local German show line breeder did bring in a working line bitch once, a Salztalblick girl, and she was used for one breeding before being placed in another home. I'm not familiar with that breeder, though, or her breeding program so I am not sure of the thought behind her decision.

What is not common is to mix American show lines and working lines, as it is not compatible enough even in theory to make an improvement to either side of the pedigree. I do know of one dog that is an American show line/DDR line cross, doing well as a companion, service dog in training, and in the conformation ring, but that's it.

I also see the American/German show line crosses, and they actually tend to be my favorite as far as conformation, over dogs that are all American or all German show lines!

Hans Prager? He has worked with and produced some excellent dogs. I was under the impression that he bred and worked Czech dogs almost exclusively (though I know he has imported show lines and WGR lines) - has he incorporated DDR lines into his program now? Really interesting, I have generally noted what type of German Shepherds he will favor and would be curious to hear about his take on the DDR lines as per his preferences.

What a good looking guy!! Zidane really passes down that strong head

Are you currently working or training him in sport? All of the dogs I've known of related to Zidane have done very well in SchH training, they seem to love the bitework especially!

Haha, yes, I have! Only lurked, I have never owned nor handled a Border Collie personally. The attitude there amuses me, I can certainly understand their sentiment and where the opinions come from (and do certainly agree with a great deal of the opinions circulating the forum)... but the negativity can be off putting, but I'm only thinking of one forum specifically. It's a shame, Border Collies are an incredible breed that people need to be educated about. There are very few things in this world more beautiful than a Border Collie at work.

Border Collies were one of the breeds I felt very interested in, although in the US the herding trial dogs are hard to come by if you do not have prior breed experience, the specialized Flyball dogs are a bit on the nervy side (depending on the breeder/lines, of course), and most of the show bred dogs lack the qualities I pursue - physically and mentally. Generally I have heard that they also tend to be softer in temperament than what I am accustomed to, but again, that seems to differ between individuals. Currently the other breeds I am trying to learn more about are Beaucerons and English Shepherds, although I never see myself without German Shepherds!!