Working line GSDs as pets Working Dogs

I agree that some breeds really are not suited to the lazy person who just wants a stuffed toy dog

But I havent actually noticed the pet/sport/show bred dogs of those breeds being any more suited to that kind of home than the working bred dogs

it might just be around here but I know pet and show cockers - and as young dogs there were nightmares - eating walls and stuff

The pet/sports collies I know dont seem to have the ability to settle ever
Dont know any show ones but my friend whos a vet says she is seeing some horrible snappy tempraments on the show ones she sees and not to touch them


so although Im not disagreeing that some of these breeds really are not for the average non active owner - I am not actually seeing the pet/show ones to be any better a fit for that type of owner

I honestly think instead of attempting to breed dummed down versions of these breeds we should be educating people about what it takes to own one, because at the end of the day there are plenty of us LOVE the high energy and the desire to work and would hate to see the breed dulled down

and yup no doubt there are more farm collies in rescue - around here there are more farm collies full stop - so its obvious that more of them will end up in rescue
I dont know a single show bred collie
and about 1/4 of the number of sports/pet bred collies

also the type of owners differ
Someone pays £50 for a dog from a farm without thinking about it, if there are problems are more likely to be the type of person who also passes on a dog without thinking about it
someone who pays several hundred or more are less likely to just dump a dog like that in rescue (generalising I know)

The sports bred dogs tend to get rehomed privatly in the sports scene without going into rescue

It is something I thought a bit about after reading the article too. I would have once advised prospective puppy purchasers to go down the show route of a breed, unless they were particularly wanting a dog to fulfil a purpose - such as working, sport etc. Now I am not so sure I would advise that way.

I think with BCs, as with WL GSDs, that the emphasis should be placed on ACTIVE pet home, rather than just average pet home.

It sounds to me as though Maddie is an ambassador for our breed, with such a great temperament.

I think temperament is paramount in the GSD and there are far too many around that are windy, nervy and aggressive :-(

Rescue dogs do often get a rough deal in the way people perceive them, but Maddie is living testament to the fact that not all rescue dogs have issues. She sounds fab

Brilliant post and one I wholeheartedly agree with. I have highlighted a part of your post that also applied to myself. I was recommended working line GSDs around 15 years ago, but felt back then and until recently that I probably would not be able to provide enough stimulation for such a dog and also mistook high drive for high aggression/easily agitated aggression. Zak is my first WL and my fourth GSD. He is the easiest GSD I have owned so far and is an absolute pleasure to live with and to take everywhere with me. He is totally trustworthy with the children, the other dogs and animals we have on the farm. I am seriously impressed and am now a complete convert to the WLs.

You are correct as well in your final paragraph and although the WL GSD (from well bred lines) can make an excellent pet for the active home, he is no couch potato and is a working dog in heart and mind.

This is a tricky one and that I'm not sure which side of the fence I am sat on. I believe you get a dog because of all it's attributes, and part of that is the reason they are the breed they are. If an owner can't cope with that, they shouldn't have one.

However, there are many, many, many dogs out there who are not in a working home, and if they have that high drive, it can't be much fun for them, or the owner.

Regarding the weimaraner. Now, I know very little about this breed, and only have 2 experiences of actually knowing dogs of this breed. The second one was bought because he liked the look of the breed. He then got interested in shooting and is wanting to work this dog. It's been a long, hard slog and I have told him, I'm not sure we will get there with her.

The breed has been discussed extensively on another board and a lot of people feel that the working weimaraner is a dying breed. As I said, I haven't got a great deal of experience of them. It seems that this breed, above all the other hprs, attract a "different" type of person (obviously not everyone) and are bought for looks more than the thought of the actual breed. Is it a shame that the breed has gone this way?

Helen

I agree with a lot of what you have said Hali.

Interestingly, WL GSDs do not come up in rescue very often at all. This could be due to a number of factors, such as the majority of WL breeders being more particular where their pups go, less WL being bred than other types of GSD, WL GSDs not being as popular with Joe Public etc etc.

It is undoubtedly true that the majority of BCs in rescue are farm bred. Again, this could be down to factor such as more working farm pups are bred, less consideration taken to where pups are sold to, cheap price of farm pup compared to pedigree KC pup of the same breed enticing the wrong sort of owner, new owners not doing the required research into BCs etc etc. As well as the fact that plenty of working bred collies do not make good pets for the average family home.

Is it more to do with the actual dogs, or the homes they are going to though?

Working springers are in the same situation as working collies. There are many more being bred than show line so far easier to get hold of, they are much cheaper to buy in comparison, less care given to where they are being sold to (in some cases at least), and not enough research by the prospective new owners.

I don't completely agree with temperament being down the list of priorities for working bred dogs though. Many shepherds/farmers have children and other dogs, and a dog that wants to bite the kids or fight with the other dogs all the time becomes a pain in the butt and a liability to the shepherd, so is usually either sold on or not bred from. That is my experience anyway. I agree that socialisation is not top of their list of priorities, as many working collies never leave the place where they work, however, most working bred collies I have met have had excellent, friendly temperaments with people and usually other dogs too.

I do wonder when you read ''working homes only''
would a breeder who was having trouble selling a litter really turn away pet homes ...

I think there has always been a bit of snobbery/oneupmanship with regards to dogs who are "just pets". In fact pet and companion dogs have one of the toughest jobs going!

However, I am not sure how I really feel about the concept of watered down versions of breeds so that they make good companion animals in the least stimulating of environments. People who don't wish to put time and effort into training and exercising their pet just really shouldn't have a dog at all. Most breeds of dog (whatever version!) can and do make excellent pet and companion animals when given enough stimulation, exercise, time and effort for the breed and individual involved.

Yes unfortunately this will always happen. I am sure I read somewhere that the BC only really became popular as pets after One Man & His Dog was on TV. People began to believe that BCs came ready trained

I had a parent at the nursery just asking me yesterday about Zak - having seen him with me and my family in one of the local parks near to the school. He commented on his level back, his colour and also how calm and well behaved he was. He assumed Zak was around 3 or 4 years old and seemed astounded when I told him that he had just turned 12 months old. I then had to reiterate that he does get a lot of stimulation, exercise and training in order to be as calm ... although I do agree that it is in his breeding also.

Sorry I'm on my phone so can't write a detailed reply but just wanted to quickly add r.e diluted down versions - I'm not sure where I stand on the concept either, hence the question mark at the end of my post, but it seems joe public will always buy dogs for the wrong reasons, huskies For example comes to mind :-(

Who knows. It would depend on the breeder I suppose - and also the pet home that was on offer.

My husband has bred a couple of litters of working collie pups in the past few years and has never advertised as working homes only - BUT has only put an advertisement in the agricultural press (for the first litter, they were so successful as workers that the second repeat litter didn't have to be advertised at all). He sold pups from both litters all to working homes, which suited him. I did say that if a pet/sport home were to come forward though that he shouldn't rule it out completely - as pet dogs can have the absolute best lives if the owners are the right ones

I have said it before but its the look of a wl GSD that many people after not the drive ...

But isn't it the look of ANY breed that attracts a potential owner INITIALLY and then the responsible/sensible ones then do their research to see if the dog they admire the look of can fit into their lifestyle (or in fact that they are willing to change their lifestyle to incorporate such a dog)?

Do you think thats the case? I personally prefer the look of WL GSD's but I have one of each and I would say that 90% of people (friends/family/general public) prefer Shilah my long haired showline to look at. Especially the non doggy people, they don't even think Kofi looks like a GSD.

I have had a mix really. My hubby prefers Zak, but my sisters prefer Yogi and Flame in looks. When out and about they all get admired, but as Zak looks "unusual" (to JP) he is the one people tend to ask about.

Because the dilution is of a lineage and breed rather than of an individual dog, I don't see this in terms of a dog's welfare. A breeder never faces the ultimatum, they never have to choose between breeding the high drive working type dog, or the low energy, low drive couch potato teddy bear dog. They need not breed or produce at all, so I strongly believe that if they DO choose to produce German Shepherd Dogs (or a dog of any working breed/type), that they will aim to produce dogs that resemble the breed they represent in temperament and drive as well, a dog with the character of a working animal.

Otherwise, if they did not breed these dogs at all, there would be no dogs or lines to mismanage or mistreat. No need to water down a lineage or breed for the individual dog's welfare, because these figurative dogs need not exist at all. If someone wished to produce dogs that resembled German Shepherds with a softer temperament, I would suggest they look into Shiloh Shepherds or King Shepherds.

I agree with you that it is easier to find suitable homes for low drive, pet market dogs, but continuing to dilute future lines would not help the dogs that currently need better homes, and choosing not to produce dogs is an even simpler and more effective solution than reproducing dogs of a working breed solely for the pet market.

Absolutely - I am glad I took the chance to delve into working lines, and while I enjoy and admire specific show line individuals, I know I will never look back. I could not think of a better companion! He is everything I wanted and needed, regardless of whether or not I realized it to begin with!

I'm surprised to hear this, my experience has been quite the opposite. Generally, I notice that people not already "in" the breed tend to be attracted more towards show lines. The rich black and red coat, the large head piece, and the heavy bone tends to leave more of an impression, a very "classic" look, the one the general public is used to. Even when I was personally looking into working line dogs and breeders, I felt myself drawn more to the show lines aesthetically. Of course, I favor the former now, but it was a gradual and acquired preference, with just a dab of bias thrown in to help .

The closest statement I could make to yours is that people tend to prefer the working lines physique due to extremes within the show lines. All they see are the roached backs and excessive rears, and in an effort to veer away from that direction, their immediate response is working lines. So rather than these lines being appealing aesthetically on their own, it's really (in my own experience) the looks of the show line that drives them towards the working lines.

Everyone I know who chose working lines for a pet seem to fit in one of two categories (or both, really). Either they 1) are simply German Shepherd people and wanted nothing more than a good GSD without a preference in lineage, or they 2) wanted a dog with tenacity, stability, and high trainability, an active companion with a "never back down" attitude. This is not including those who have German Shepherds for the purpose of competitive sport or work, who, as implied, DO get their dogs for drive.

This is my experience, of course, so there is absolutely no right or wrong and I don't mean to say so. Just feel surprised at this statement!

Voraus, this is an excellent, well balanced post.

R.E pet bred dogs and "dilution." I mean more along the lines of - people are going to continue to buy dogs regardless of whether they shouldn't be. Unscrupulous breeders will continue to sell pups to people who shouldn't have them. In an ideal world, yes it would happen as you say, but the reality is what it is, and it's the dogs that suffer in the long run. But yes I totally know what you are saying.....

Voraus, yes very good point
A good breeder picks who their dogs will go to and can choose not to sell to someone who cannot cope with a GSD temprament
and of course they can choose not to breed at all

The problem lies with the people who dont care about who they sell their dogs to - and - they dont care

I really dont like the idea of having double the number of breeds we have just now - the 'real' dog and the dumbed down for the lazy dog owners dog

infact its way more than that isnt it? You would have the pet GSD
the working line GSD
the farm bred GSD
the Show GSD (and apparently the alsation line as well)
the sports GSD

all breeding in their ever decreasing little gene pools and all moving so far away from each other that each group will be arguing that theirs is the 'real' GSD

sigh

Yes very good point :-(