Working line German shepherds Working Dogs

But, as in the working collie world, "unqualified" (ie not gained points or titles in competition) dogs/bitches can be some of the most excellent workers and can on to produce some fabulous progeny that then either go on to become working dogs and/or go on to do well in trials. Just because a dog has done well in competition, does not mean it will produce similar progeny to itself (weak dogs can be carried by excellent handlers). That is where looking at the big picture, and being really knowledgeable about lines etc really comes into its own imo.

Could you give a demonstration how weak dogs can be carried by excellent handlers in the sport of Schutzhund please?

Ie an example of an exercise in Schutzhund which the dog is weak in and the handler carries?

And of course how that is done.

Cheers

And you should be commended for your high standards. I believe that if I were to ever breed a litter of GSDs (which is highly unlikely), then I would want to be as scrupulous as yourself.

Interesting, you have only been asked four times though, when you dog obviously has plenty of excellent attributes. Was he bred from similarly health-tested and titled parents/gparents etc?

No I can't, as I don't train or compete in the sport of Schutzhund. I was talking about the sheepdog world when I made that comment. Sorry for not making that more clear.

i know, i have alot to think about exercise wise i think anything will fit in with the cresteds, they take as much as you give and get roundabout 2 hours a day at the minute, longer at weekends. im pretty active and like exercise and training (thats why im looking at working trials etc)

Not particularly interesting, there are MANY extremely highly qualified dogs with excellent attributes which are NEVER used and NEVER sought after.

It depends on individual preferences.

But I do not think he has any special qualities that are not extant in many working dogs that I meet most days of the week.


And yes my dog is a grandson of the World Champion Asko von der Lutter and all his antecdents have been comprehensively health tested, neither his sire nor dam were titled as they were house Guard dogs in Portugal and Stevie Dunn (who died recently) had then gone on to Mondioring with Malinois.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=515728

For some reason the pedigree database is not populated with Hannibal or Geri's hip scores but that is because the information is input by owners/breeders.

I have that information on the portuguese paperwork.

I would imagine in Sheepdog trials and in Schutzhund the answer would be in the training really?
A average dog can go a long way with great training

Was that the kind of thing you ment Moobli??

Also in sheepdog trials even tho it is very impressive it is really only testing a small section of things
Personnaly if I wanted a good working pup I wouldnt go to trials I would find a farmer who worked day in day out in the type of terrain with the type of sheep and types of jobs I would be looking for

Trials are fun to watch, but actually seeing the dog do the huge variaty of work they do is so amazing (and often with no direction from the handler at all)

A very good trainer used to say that if he had to choose between a great dog and a meiocre trainer and a mediocre dog with a great trainer then he would choose the latter.

Which is true in many areas however in Schutzhund for example the test is designed to identify a weak dog/the dog's weaknesses.

fair enough, its not something I know much about at all
lol I think most of us have great dogs with mediocre handlers I know I do

I know only too well about looking at the bigger picture - look back at some of my posts. And of course the huge difference between WSDs and GSDs is that the latter no longer have or perform an original function (at least not in this country to my knowledge), so cannot be classed as an "excellent worker" which obviously only then leaves the route of artificial tests in order to prove that such a dog with few and poor health test results is worth breeding from.

And the fact still remains - this dog was bred from because it is believed to be special, nothing more. Had it been fully health tested and passed all of these tests but was unqualified or had brilliant working qualifications with a hip score of 20/2 then I could feel that it was justified. However, as the dog not only has no proof of excellence but also a bad health test result than I don't feel breeding can be justified. As SB has said, in a breed as numerically strong as the GSD there is no need to breed such a dog.

Why can't police dogs, guide dogs, search & rescue dogs - all "jobs" that GSDs perform, not be classed as "excellent workers"? The GSD may not perform its original function anymore (in the UK) but it is one of the most versatile and commonly used working dogs.

You personally may not feel that breeding particular GSDs is justified, however, by your own admission, you know little of the breed and therefore perhaps don't see the bigger picture that some working line breeders do see?

So many people appear to have lost sight of the fact that joint problems are so multifactoral, there is no way to predict the likely inheritance and that xrays are intended to be a guide, not an absolute, especially when you consider hip and elbow scores take no consideration to injury, even if it is obvious.

While it is certainly useful to know a dogs joint status, perhaps breeders are getting a false sense of security from them, at the expense of other traits, (such as the way some of the showline dogs have become so atrociously unsound, because the fact an unsound dog will often have good hips so as long as it looks good on paper, the unsoundness is ok???

Since this thread I have found out that the haemophilia test came into vogue over 20 years ago and none have been found that do not originate from Canto Weinerau daughters, It is known exactly how it is transmitted, so why are we still doing it when you can identify a possible carrier from looking at the pedigree?

Then there was the rush to test for JRD which was proven to be a useless, but not before several people had positive tested dogs that did not have it and now carry the stigma undeservedly.

Now to the DM test, which would be a wonderful thing that would surely be widely used if it was not already proving unreliable.

As I have said earlier, health-testing is definitely a PART of breeding, but I really am starting to question the validity of certain tests and the weight put on them.

Is the dog in question one of these "excellent workers"?

Regarding the rest, I still do not believe there was any justification for breeding this dog. Please see my last post for the evidence.

You said GSDs couldn't be classed as excellent workers ... I am just proving that particular statement to be untrue. This particular dog may well go on to sire numerous excellent working dogs - let's wait and see.

Regarding the rest, your post is merely your own opinion. It is not evidence ;-)

I think we have done this topic to death now though.

Let's move on!

So he's not an excellent worker then? If so my opinion still stands for the same reasons.

By evidence I meant the evidence to show my opinion.

The problem is some health testing is black & white ie haemophilia testing & some is really complicated like hips which are part heredity, part environment & even two dogs with equal scores do not produce the same results in their litters. When hip scoring & using the results first started it made a difference & the breed average improved but now it is not as useful & in Germany they are adding a component to a dogs results dependent on whether he/she improves their progeny or not. I know when looking for a sire I look at his progeny results & his litter mates results just as much as his.

I'd love a WL GSD and hope to own one someday! I have to say the look is part of the attraction, I adore the dark sable. And from what I have heard/read, I like the sound of them. Does anyone know of or can recommend any books on WL sheps?

P.s. I think there is too much arguing and not enough photo posting going on here

That's really interesting, makes a lot of sense!

Haha I agree ;-)

Not sure there are any specific books on WLs. I like the dark sables too

Here are a few more pics - some of my wonderful boy and some others that I just admire from afar

And some I admire from a distance :-D

Post a pic of the hard pup on the right on the N site ...
I am on my phone so can not do it ...lol