German Shepherd / Crufts Showing

Yup!
and who decided it was attractive for a dog to pose like a bitch urinating?

The back has always been required to be straight, it's the topline that has always been required to have a slope from the withers to the croup.

It appears to me that non show people have a problem understanding the difference between the back & the topline

There is another way & that is to use a working Beardie on a KC registered bitch which is what a friend of mine is doing.

The dog has to be health tested & it's only the cost of that & the £100 fee which in the world of improving a breeds health etc is a pittance

I cannot see the point in doing this for an already very popular & somewhat overbred breed, Beardies on the otherhand are suffering from being way too inbred on Pepperlands Lyric John & urgently need to get back to some healthy dogs

No I have no trouble understanding at all, but for us non showing people we dont feel the need to bang on about toplines to make it sound like we know something other people dont and so makes us more expert to say the exxadurations made are correct

OK - Patch posted an old standard that talked about the 'topline' being flat and parralell to the ground
A few years later that was changed

Also in some lines of GSD the back is in no way straight but curves or bends quite dramatically

A dogs back should be straight, apparently (although as plenty of people on here have stated there are plenty of animals who can do the same job without the adaption) the GSD is required to have a tilted pelvis - so the back will be straight up to there then there will be a slope/curve/whatever

Because of this it obviously changes the position of the legs - so a GSD when stood normally with its paws under the hips this means the angle from the hock to the ground will not be 90 degrees - the dog looks a little tucked in stood like this

So one leg is pulled further back to show parallel hocks - this causes the bum to be lower and so a slop show in the show stance
But some dogs are so overangulated that to get into that show stance they are practically sitting on the other hock (or as C&D put it - they look like peeing bitches)

I'm losing the will to live here. The GSD breed standard has NEVER stated that the topline should be flat & parallel.

I have a copy(a 1st Edition in German BTW)of Von Stephanitz book & nowhere does he state that the topline should be straight & level to the floor.

I'm not interested in any old UK breed standards for the GSD as the GSD has never been a UK breed they are German Shepherds & therefore should be bred to the German Standard.

As for the photographs the first one is taken at totally the wrong angle so the dogs back & topline cannot be assesed & the 2nd one clearly shows that dog is being over stretched & stacked(placed & held into position)so that does not show the dogs back & topline correctly either.

My GSDs often stood themselves in the show stance natural when alert & always had one hind leg further forward than the other. From my very first GSD(born in 1958 !!)to my last one they all had straight backs & a sloping topline from withers to croup & because they were correctly proportioned when they moved at all speeds they retained a level topline in movement(which a dog with a level topline in stance cannot if it's natural gait is a trot & not a walk because the forelegs extend & the withers drop at the trot & a level toplined dog then falls on the forehand movement)

Border Collies when moved too fast fall on forehand(obvious if you watch the BCs at the Westminster show)as do Beardies which is why so many of them are shown strung up in an effort to keep the topline level.

I have in the past spent hours & hours watching dogs move naturally & in the showring. Listening to other observers comments often had me despairing of their lack of understanding of the required construction needed to produce a sound correct moving dog.

Contradicting yourself there
saying it has NEVER been in the standard and then saying you dont wanna hear about the UK standard
We were talking about dogs in the UK so it is the UK standard that applys

I was not posting the fotos for you to 'asses' my friends dog it was to point out how with the tilt to the pelvis the angle of the hock to foot is different than for most dogs

In the older photographs of GSD's they also have one leg behind for the straight hocks and the other infront to balance the dog

Pretty much none of us are disputing a GENTLE slope
or a level topline in movement
Mainly what has been mentiond here are loose hocks, dogs so angulated that they walk on their hocks and dogs stood in such a stupid pose

Noone is commenting on the topline of border collies or whatever - but yes they do tend to fall forwards - and work crouched forwards - its how the breed works, an obsession about the topline is missing the point that the dog can do its job perfectly and tirelessly without conforimg to what you think of as correct movement

hmm so is the dog wrong - or your definition of correct wrong??

It actually has me dispare listening to people watching show dogs trot around a bit and then assume they know which dog would be able to do the job the breed was made for better than others
When the rules have not been made up by picking the best dogs at working and studying their movement - nope the rules were made by people standing around deciding what they thought would work the best for the dog

Then these rules are passed down from person to person until they are gospel - with no proof

The best movement for a dog of any breed is the one of the wolf. That has been selected for and bred for way longer than we have been making 'breeds'

The wolf has developed to survive, the dog has been developed to do a job for humans.

Are you aware that HD is common in real wild wolves & wild dogs(ie not in sarfari parks/zoos) ?? The difference between dogs & wild animals in this respect is that the life span of a wolf/wild dog is much shorter than most domesticated dogs & ergo HD is not a death knell for in the wild. I've had dogs with quite severe HD that have never shown any weaken/problems with their hindquarters. The ambling movement in wolves is typical of animals with HD BTW

I will no longer reply to you as you are clearly a fan of the "good ole"dogs that stood & walked with a topline like a table & had wonder temperaments/long healthy lives & could easily do the job the breed was developed for. You'll be seeing the descendants fo these dogs at Crufts next year

Clearly you dont read posts
I said I liked the dog at crufts this year
I said I understood the choice for the sloping topline

But not to the extream we are currently seeing - imo a dog like Zac has much healther movement (and I am not talking about HD and never have in this post - that is a different matter)

It never fails to amaze me that people will agree that the dogs I dont like the movment of or the stance of are wrong but still fight tooth and nail against every post

My main points
The dogs shown in PDE were not right
The show stance of a dog squatting is not right
Hocks should not be walked on
The BOB this year was better than in years gone buy and MUCH better then the Westminster dog

As far as I am aware breeds have "one" standard, and that will be the one that was devised in the country of origin. the GSD for instance will have its breed standard from its country of origin set by the founders of the breed, the UK kennel club as with other KC around the world will hold "that same" standard.

There is no UK standard held by the KC of any breed unless its a UK breed, they will hold "one" standard , so
I think the UK standard you are refering to is one and the same as the one from the country of origin.

The breed may be split as with other breeds (labs/springers) according to preference, but they should ALL adhere to the "one" standard.

My theres a statement because you don't like the look of a breed, then those in said breed must be wrong because you say so

have you ever thought , that maybe that's why they fight tooth and nail back to you, because they may know a little more about a breed that you do!

Thats great I was unaware that in England our Sheps have to pass this to be shown/Bred.

I said using what we have currently available, what would you suggest would be a good test?

What about English stock, do they need this also?

I honestly thought he was better than some GSD's that have won in the past, but is there room for improvement?

When did you last own a GSD Dyane? Do you think you will see differences in the GSDs (of all types) when you choose to have another?

Not according to the above post. If it is the case that there is only one - then why do the American dogs look SO different that the self profressed experts on here say they are wrong?

Well I have been saying dogs with saggy eyes and excessive wrinkles have been wrong for years - the 'experts' in the breed dissagree - seems vets are agreeing with me

I know next to nothing about a Clumber - yet it seems that I know more than the experts

Who made the experts experts?
Who told the experts as GSD was supposed to move the way it does?
What qualifications did they have to say that?
Have any of these experts actually done any studies on actual dogs working all day long doing the job they are supposed to to see what angulation actually is the best fore tireless working?

if a domesticated dog had to suvive in the wild, its life span would be much shorter than a wolf/wild dog., and the wolf/wild dog would live longer without the danger of the wild.--obviously!!

after reading all your views, i have come to the conclusion that it is all down to HUMAN NATURE AND MONEY
. humans crawled,then walked then had to be the fastest. then we had transport, we used animals. we invented the car then that had to be the fastest and most expensive. the bike, the motor bike, they had to be the fastest and most expensive. then we had the plane, that had to be the fastest and most expensive.we had a home. then had to be the biggest/ tallest and most expensive.the horse had to work for us and feed us.. then that had to be the fastest and most expensive. everything we touch, goes to extremes. to beat others and make the most money. look at us.. the fastest runners, the strongest. cheating and taking performance enhancing drugs to achieve our goals, and earn the most money. the models with eating disorders, and drugs to keep them slim. implants, steroids, on us and our animals.( who have no choice!) just to beat another, and earn most money. Then our poor Dogs. every size, shape, colour, then all to extremes- for money. HUMAN NATURE AND MONEY!!! what a terrible thing. i just hope the rest of those poor animals outlive the human race.
thanks for everybodies input. very interesting!!

sorry this is a bit late, but that comment is priceless!!

(I'm gonna steal it!)

I really don't know anything about how a GSD "should" look, but I've never seen any other dog with that exaggerated triangle outline. It's horrendous!

It isn't about breeds it is about dogs.

rune

That's my good laugh for this morning! Back to work with me!

I thought this thread was about a particular breed.:?

At least that's what the tittle says !