German Shepherd / Crufts Showing

Completely agree Rips Zak does indeed have a sloping topline. He is not exaggerated in any way, but is correct in conformation as far as the standard is concerned as far as I am aware. He doesn't look like a WGSL dog that you would see in the ring, but at the same time he does not have a "straight back" either - which is, of course, incorrect for this breed.

As far as working breeds being changed in order to win prizes, you see that in the working border collie all the time. There are less and less border collies doing their original work, but more and more that are "Saturday dogs" - ie trialling dogs. When trial dogs are bred to trial dogs it is often to the detriment of the all round working dog, especially the hill dog.

This is where border collies differ from all the other UK KC breeds. The ISDS (and original BC for wont of a better word) has no breed standard.

I am sure that this would most certainly be the case in breeds such as the bulldog, bassett, mastiff etc. You only need to look at the working counterparts of these breeds to see that they are fitter and healthier than the show type.

Very true & many more puppies who 60 years ago would have died in the nest are now surviving but not neccessarily free from problems. I personally believe fit longevity is also partially in the genes in humans & dogs. I know I have had two bitch lines in the last 60 years where the majority of the offspring lived well on into their teens, & it would appear related lines did the same. However I do not put this down to my capabilities as a breeder but more to my luck with the lines I started with happenig to be good ones for lasting fitness & longevity.

To register a litter of ISDS pups, do both parents have to be registered? Are there a lot of ISDS registered BC's in the country? and finally
, do they need to be registered ISDS to compete in trials?

Helen

You can register a dog on merit---details can be found on the ISDS site.

The reason working dogs differ in shape and size is because they are working dogs and may need to be different shapes and sizes to be more useful according to the terrain and area they live in.

I can't understand why Australian dogs would need the sort of coat their show dogs have developed----it is totally impractical for heat. Cattle dogs and kelpies make more sense! They haven't done it for the dog to be used, they have done it on looks only.

Only in the show ring does one size fit all, in practical terms it doesn't work.

rune

Showing has ruined the border collie. You only need to look at the winners from the westminster show (in the US) to see that. You never see a short coated BC in the show ring.

The ISDS are the guardians of the breed. All dogs must be born of eye tested and registered (with the ISDS, not the KC) parents. On rare occasions a dog can be resistered on merit. Merit meaning its working ability not how beautiful it looks.

ISDS dogs get automatic entry on the the KC register. KC only registered dogs are NOT ELIGABLE for entry on to the ISDS register.

The ISDS came up with the term "border collie". How DARE the KC tell me I cannot register my ISDS dog on the activities register as a BC!!!

Yes both parents have to be registered with the ISDS and have passed an eye test (and you also have to be a member yourself).

From http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2011/04/only-8-border-collies.html

"Over 250,000 Border Collies have been registered with the ISDS since its founding over a century ago even though they didn’t really keep comprehensive stud books in earnest until the 1940s. Registrations have remained steady over the last few decades with 5,000 – 7,000 dogs being born and registered every year. This is the founding gene pool for all Border Collies worldwide and save for a dash of “local flavor” in the form of a Kelpie, English Shepherd, Beardie, pre-ISDS Border Collie, etc. thrown in, it represents the lion-share of global genetics for the breed."

No, a dog does not have to be registered with the ISDS to compete in trials, other than the National trials (although unregistered dogs can be registered on merit).

I absolutely agree that is one of the important factor. It may be that this isn't about inheriting a single longevity gene but about inheriting a combination of good genes that avoid or protect from the factors that shorten lifespan?

I have always though it was a bloomin' cheek them appropriating the name like that when it wasn't theirs to do so in the first place!

Actually there is one more regulation for ISDS registration whether it's by parentage or merit & that is that by parentage the owner of the sire & dam must be ISDS members & by merit the owner must be an ISDS member. This is why the ISDS can insist on health testing before registraion. BTW if a dog is a CEA carrier by DNA test(like my Rjj)puppies can only be registered by him if thy are out of a DNA tested normal bitch & the puppies are DNA tested before registration this is so their DNA status is known

The ISDS register their dogs as working sheepdog(or Border Collie)& traditionally the ISDS consider only dogs from the border of Scotland & England to be Border Collies(the clue is in the name BTW)

You can register your ISDS dog on the activities register, but not as a Border Collie, any dog that is not from KC registered parents of the same breed can be on the AR. This was at the insistance of the ISDS to prevent mongrels of unknown parentage as Border Collies.

Why would you want to register your ISDS dog only on the activities register ? It costs no more than the full register.

All my ISDS dogs have been registered on the full register-however I would never allow one of my dogs to be used on a KC only bloodline regsitered bitch, my 2 KC only registered dogs are both part ISDS & part Obedience bloodlines with sadly a bit of the "foreign"stuff from down under that includes Kelpie blood !!! fortunately the ISDS is the greater part

Yup and the register on merit is a great idea to keep the gene pool open - although by the sounds of things its not perfect either with 'popular sire syndrome' being prevalent

I do love that a dog that the KC would have considered to be a bearded collie was registered on merit by the ISDS because he worked like a BC
fantastic I think

The likelihood is that it will have had BC blood in it if it worked like a BC??

Also, would the KC even consider a working beardie as a bearded collie?

Joe: I have never, and would never, register any of my ISDS collies with the KC, other than the activities register because I as far as breeding goes, I don't rate the KC at all.

Taken from http://www.gis.net/~shepdog/BC_Museum/Permanent/BCColors_CoatType/BC_ColorSmooth.html


I love this foto
Ohh this one too

I agree there was most likely BC in its line - or more interestingly - there is also the chance that the bearded gene still exists in the BC so although rare they could be 100% BC
can you imagine the look of horror if a show dog dropped a pup that looked like this
because of course to a show breeder they would be wrong because the standard dosent include a bearded coat
But looks to me very much like a border collie and works like one

and true they prob wouldnt even see a working beardie as a real one as they dont know what they look like under all that coat

I love my GSD’s but something may need to be done about them before it becomes too late.

Other breeds are worse off, but that shouldn’t mean admires, owner, breeders and working handlers shouldn’t be pushing for the very best for this breed.

If the standard states it is to have a sloping top line like nearly all GSD’s do, then it should be put as a measure.
Then the judge can stand back and see if it’s exaggerated, judges then do not think the GSD must have a sloping top line’ then the dog with the most sloping top line wins.
How would you feel if a fitness test was brought in for all breeds, so all dogs had to pass a breed specific test before being shown?

The test could possibly consist of a fitness test and a drive test?

Using what we have available now, we could say all show GSD should be trained to a KCGC silver award standard as a minimum to show. To then incorporate this into the show ring, like an obedience/Shutzhund test.

All GSD should be able to cover 4 miles in X minutes, or should have a VO2 max score of X after 10 minutes of exercise.

If they did introduce it then have a yearly test to make sure it is maintained, or possibly part of it each show attended?
Then surely the “better” lines would be going forward and winning.

Plus it would give other data, if line A always showed to the age of 12, then line B never showed after age 7 then there is a possibility line B isn’t as good stock as line A.

Many years ago the then Beardie CC record holder's produced a BC in one of his litters-only 2 puppies were registered from the litter yet there were 3 live puppies. The bitch's 2 other litters contained only Beardies(by different dogs)

Beardies do not work stock the same way as a WSD/BC, Beardies are driving dogs

At the moment it isn't possible to register a working beardie as a Beardie with the KC, it was originally considered in 2004.

As far as I know this will change in July 2012 & any dog of a KC recognized breed will be eligible for KC registration, subject to certain rules. The Actual regulation has been changed, but the yearbook isn't published until July

There is already a recognized endurance test for GSDs which is part of the VPG(Vielseitigkeitsprüfung für Gebrauchshunde) qualifications-the AD(ompletion of a distance of 20 km [12.4 miles] at a pace of 12 to 15 km/hour [7.4 to 9.3 miles per hour]beside a bike, with the dogs being vet checked before, during & after the test)

KCGC tests are not a test for "Fit for Function"& not suitable to test a"breed"'s ability.

The SV now require all"foreign"bitches to have the BH(Begleithundprüfung)qualification before they can be bred to SV registered german resident stud dogs

The BOB at Crufts has already proved he is"Fit for Function" & no he is not my ideal GSD-my preference is for the VPG bred dogs

I cant find it just now but I remember years ago Patch put up in one of these threads are really old breed standard for the GSD
and it called for a straight back - she then posted one from a few years later that talked about a slight slope

So breed standards have been subject to change
anyone know why??

your right. it should be a mild slope, as Zak's, but that is all.
i think most of us mean "straight-ER!!" not one extream to another.

You have to go through a rigorous procedure---I looked into it re Etta and gundog trials. It is also expensive.

rune