German Shepherd / Crufts Showing

Really? I have NEVER seen one. Strathclyde police dog handling unit used to do regular exibitions and I have never ever seen a dog which looks anything like the "show" type there. Can you provide a picture?

yes.. correct. i thought that.

Absolutely! This appears to be the case in many breeds - to their detriment.

It would be interesting to see how a breed would look if instead of having a pre conceived idea of what the back end should look like the breeder simply selected for the dog who trotted the most tirelessly all day doing their job

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAjbXJ1kCQM

..sorry that clip does NOT demonstrate that this dog is fit for function - the GSD's original function was to use a ground covering tireless gait in order to circle flocks of sheep ....not to make short sharp bursts of speed , leap up and down barking wildly then take a flying lunge and hang on for dear life ..why would any shepherd want their dog to do this to their sheep ?

id say like a wolf's ......

although its not just the rear end that counts

You need to get out more or watch more TV.

No I do not have pictures, but I have seen MANY police dogs from MANY forces in person at inter regional trials and nationals........ and of course many of my friends have operational police dogs who do not make it this far which fit the picture described so emotively by detractors.....

I have NEVER seen the Koh i Noor, but I do not doubt it exists..................

Indeed.

The CSV was created to do the exact same job as the GSD?

It's a sloping topline, not backside. I'm sure the request for a sloping topline in the breed standard all those years ago was done for good reason, but I for one am not about to question something I don't know a great deal about purely because I'm not keen on the look of the more extreme show version.

Lets not forget the damage working folk can do to breeds also. I know you love Zak, but the working fraternity can be just as much at fault for changing breeds in order to better their chances of winning prizes. I think it's important not to forget that. You own a working type GSD and he happens to be lovely, but that doesn't mean all working GSDs (or their breeders more to the point) are perfect and without fault.

I think what people are forgetting is that the GSD breed standard has required a sloping topline from day one (as far as I'm aware). If you look at Moobli's Zak he has a sloping topline. Some may prefer to call it a square back, but whether you like it or not, it does indeed slope. Just the way it should. In my mind, those of you who seem to want to change the breed just because you don't like the way it looks are just as much at fault as those who have changed the breed in the show ring because a judge has preferred a more extreme slope at some point.

The breed should have a sloping topline, much like Zak (imo) not a straight topline as some out you seem to want it to have.

So you're seriously suggesting that breed standards for working breeds are created from thin air? IME working breeds are created for a purpose, the breed standard is created from the working dog and then shown.

Just because you don't like what some of the extreme show versions look like doesn't suddenly make the breed standard wrong. It just means certain people have misinterpreted it.

It's the same with the Springer: the dog was worked long before it was shown. The breed standard was created from the working dog and once all the excessive show coat is removed you're left with the original breed.

or perhaps that they have exaggerated it to make it look different from its working counterpart. Surely, if breeders had stuck to the original looks of the dogs way back when the breed was indeed a worker, then we wouldn't have the problems or discussions that we see today?

Yes, a circular, "catch 22" argument.

The most flawed dog most closely fits the flawed (show) standard so must be the best example of the breed, despite looking the least like the actual working examples of the breed!

If you go to the German Sieger you will see, albeit only a very few, dogs who are herders who enter the competition with their pet owned companions & look just like them. However almost from the beginning Von Stephanitz was not looking to produce just a sheep herder he was interested in the versitility of the GSD & promoted its use in the first world war. The modern GSD is fit for function though not all are as fit as the German registered dogs where they have to pass working & fitness tests before they are allowed to be bred from.

True but being able to do a job is just the first factor (although certainly a worthwhile one), longevity in doing that job and standing up to the repeated rigours of it years after year are a test of fitness for purpose.

A dog could test and be approved as a young dog, who could still be disadvantaged long term by a conformation that it could work despite of short term for a few years, rather than work well long term for a normal lifetimebecause of that conformation.

A large number of GSDs ultimately end their lives being PTS for a variety of function-impairing rear end problems when they and their owners get to a point whereby they can no longer cope.

While some GSDs do have problems, most of these are from backyard breeders who do not health check. Because hip dysplasia is such a complex problem being part heredity & part environmentally caused it is difficult & is a problem in many breeds, not just the GSD. The worst dog I personally have ever witnessed with hip problems was a chow.
The other & recent problen is DM & this is now, I believe, understood to be linked to a gene causing certain nutrients, to not be absorbed & although it affects the rear end it is a brain signal problem & an auto immune problem & I know how devastating it is, but my rescue boy who had this was as straight backed as could be. It has no linkage to the conformation of the dog.

Again, something we will never know because the vets don't yet link up and compare data. Had a national database been available now, it would be easy to compare breeds and to see if indeed the GSDs have the most incidences of HD and/or other hip/spine problems than the others. As we don't, it's all just guesswork

Just guesswork among pets but the kennel club publish this information about breeds where breeders have done these tests & produce a breed average, & believe me the GSD is nowhere near one of the worst & it has improved since the records started to be kept. Problem is because some breeds have very few results their averages could be skewed for better or worse so it really needs more dogs of every breed to be done to truly have accurate data.

The KC data shows the test results, but does it show accurately the longevity results? Dogs that develop hip problems later in life wouldn't show up would they?

Except older vets are aware of their own decades of personal professional experiences as to which dogs they most frequently see certain specific medical problems with. Not a linked up data base certainly but a valuable insight.

When looking at longevity in breeds over decades though the picture is complicated by advances in knowledge of nutrition, diagnosis and treatment of various conditions, changes in living conditions/management (e.g. inside/outside, in bedroom/ in kitchen overnight, etc) that have also occurred over that same time period.

Sorry, you are right, perhaps fit for function was not the right term for this particular clip - however, it was a faultless performance

Just as an aside, I wonder if there would be a case for certain standards to be modified to reflect the work that that breed does today. As we know, very few GSDs work sheep in this country or, in fact, abroad and many more are worked in protection, nosework etc etc.

Yes, but that information isn't widely available and would only be acceptable if the vet checked his practice's records over the decades to back up his/her impressions.