German Shepherd / Crufts Showing

but how many times do we here the .......... that dog could not do the job it was bred to do, regardless of it ever going to actually do said job,

The argument is always "fit for function" and breeds should be bred to that ethos, regardless if they are actually going to do the job.

Yet here was are with a double standard (from what I am seeing) in the GSD, because most will not work/protect sheep as they are bred to do, its OK to diverse from the standard.

Hence my question, and it stands to reason if a dog is breed to petrol the sheep all day and its conformation enables it to do said job with ease, then surely said conformation should allow it to do "other jobs" with ease, without changing it because one does not like the way the breed is supposed to be.

You said they were all too sloping hence my dog was too sloping in his topline-the topline of the GSD has never been totally level or straight BTW not even Horand(there is no photo of him in the show stance or even stood side on foursquare).

I know what the link said as I know the Author(although he is no longer at the Nantwich Vet Hosp)

Osteoarthritis is a multi causal condition & can occur in any joint in the body not just the hips, it is certainly partly genetic as very young otherwise fit & healthy humans can develop it. It has links to some many other conditions.

My mother & Grandmother had Osteoarthritis from an early age & I've had Osteoarthitis since my late teens, in my hands & non weight bearing joints, so the theory of construction causing it is very tentative. Dogs age quicker than humans & Osteoarthritis is linked to ageing as well.

I have severe Osteoarthritis in both knees, however this is because I had the cartilage removed from both knees when I was 20-because of a bad sporting injury.

I had a BC with severe HD & he never developed osteoarthrits because he was excerised to to produce muscle & cartilage to replace the bone in his hips. I was told my vet that he would develop arthritis whilst he was young-he never did

Look at the kennels I put the link to, their dogs DO patrol sheep all day & yet do not have the"straight/level"topline you think is correct !

My 'straighter back' GSD would tire more quickly on the job than a WGSL at a 'trotting' speed - his action is much more upright and less economical/uses more energy. Even though his hindquarters are muscular, his shape does not enable him to effectively use the power from the rear. Interesting to watch the movement of a 'straight back' next to a 'sloped back' - gawd I hate using those terms! The difference in 'power' is quite marked. Hence, I like the movement of the WGSL. I see hideous examples of all types of GSD out there, poorly bred, but also some stunners! Same in every breed I guess!

I have no doubt that the working line GSD would be more than capable conformationally of working sheep all day. The required drive, instinct and attitude might be lacking in many, as the shepherd dog of old is long gone in most cases but the workline dogs are capable of a multitude of careers, as I have already mentioned.

I don't know whether the showline GSDs could patrol (petrol?!) sheep all day or not, but the show type is not prevalent in any of the jobs that the GSD does today. That must surely mean that the working lines are most suited to work.

I wonder whether Jeagibear saw there were two pages of shepherds to see on that link?

I am confident that he would approve of the old black and white photo of the dog you used to own. When did you own that dog?

I dont think this dog was as bad as some I have seen that is for sure. Looks a whole lot better - and night and day compared to the American winner who was standing on his hock 1/2 the time!!
I think he is quite a nice looking dog, I understand the reason for the tilted pelvis from the link moobli posted in another thread about the breed
but look at the images on here
http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/
he is a litte weak in the back end and cow hocked
But he is an improvement by a long way and I do quite like him

Actually I have been doing a whole lot of reading on the breed and I am wondering about how much that is actually their job
Yes the founder did origonaly start them on working sheep - but while he was still alive he was promoting them to the police and army
So at best it could be argued that they are a multi function dog - or a service dog with a bit of work on sheep
and for that purpose it would be important that not only could they gait endlessly and tirelessly but also they need to be able to WALK and run and jump - in the past some of the show dogs have had trouble standing and they wabble quite alot when walking - therefore they would be no use with the police

a dog can be suffering without actually dying from its suffering
a dog can also be in constant pain all its life without showing it

not saying that your dog was but just making the point that your argument dosent prove anything

the mastif kicked from crufts wont die from its eyes or the horrible skin folds
It wont even complain
But I would struggle to think of a dog lover who cannot see that he would have a much happier life without them

I now understand and quite like the gaiting of the GSD - but it should not be so overstated that it takes away the dogs ability to stand and walk normaly

Good post and I definitely agree with your last sentence. There are good and bad in all walks of life - and that include dogs.

The only "straight back" GSD I have is my obedience bred bitch and her movement is not as flowing (even as a youngster) as my WGSL boy. However, the really wonderful mover of my three is my working line boy. I must take some video so you can see.

Ooops.sorry. page two was better. all three black and white pics were better. they were my favourites.

Well the last 2 black & white photos included a Crufts BIS winner, who had a very soft topline & poor fore & hind movement & the other is a very nervous dog with dreadful movement-my late Dad used to describe the movement was sewing machine at the front & knitting needles at the back.

As for the other B&W photo surely his topline being sloping means he has HD ???

So according to you Echo had Osteoarthritis in his hips(because of his topline in the show stance)which were scored 0 & the BVA stated that he had the most perfect pelvic construction that anyone had ever seen. His plates are still used by the BVA to illustrate the perfect pelvic construction ???

You obviously do not know what a total wimp he was if he was hurt in anyway, he was taken to the vets when he cried whilst getting into the car & the vet discovered he had liver cancer & was PTS there & then as Liver Cancer spreads very very rapidly throughout the body in dogs

certainly cannot win here!! could this be the aggresive "alsianism" coming out in you??????
its because of people like you,that we have these problems!
thanks for your time. bye!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is "alsianism" ?? It is the supporters of the "Alsatian"type that insist on calling their dogs Alsatians & are against compulsory health testing for the GSD. Their club's website is http://www.gsdalsatianclubuk.org.uk/index.html & if you check out their code of ethics there is no mention of any health testing.

What problems have I brought to the GSD as a breed ? Is it that ALL my dogs were fully health tested before being bred from ? Only used on fully health tested bitches if used at stud ? That they all were obedience/WT trained & did well in obedience ?? That they all had brilliant temperaments ? What awful problems these must seem to you

according to me nothing - I didnt say ANYTHING about the state of any dogs hips - I simply said that your argument didnt prove or dissprove anything
Point to me anywhere in my post where I said a tilted pelvis causes HD?
In the past I have said - and will continue to say that excessive angulation like seen in some of the American dogs WILL put additional strain on all the joints in the back of the dog
and no Im not a vet - my qualifications in engineering are what I am basing that observation on

I am sorry you lost him to cancer but again that dose not prove or dissprove any of the points
there is a big difference between chronic and acute pain
There is a big difference between a pain someone has had all their life and a new pain
again I never said YOUR dog was in pain, I have never even seen your dog
perhaps if you read what I say instead of jump to conclusions??

Did you look at the link to the fotos of the BOB I put up? Like I said I was pretty happy with the angulation of his back end, but in these photos he doesent look as strong as he should be - and is cow hocked

do you have proof these non health checked dogs are less healthy than your health checked dogs?

Interesting point.

Thats the problem once Crufts has finished the so called armchair judges , who have no idea what a breed of dog should move like or how its conforms to the standard start commentating of it and knocking it ( not having a go at you;-) ).

i thought him quite lovely

I`m sure he`s a nice dog. I`ll never own a show dog though.
Just for interest - have a look at some really early photos of Shepherds.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v485/Pietoro/Dog Breed Historical Pictures/German Shepherd/

While there is no proof that most of these none health checked dogs are less fit, there is in some cases from problems passed on to their offspring, there is no proof they are as fit either, & we need to see before breeding. I have seen dogs with excellent movement with very poor hips & dogs who looked as though they were knitting who had excellent hips.
As someone who has owned & shown GSDs since the 50s I can assure you the current dogs on the Germanic side are far fitter & healthier than their forebears. Dogs back aways were bigger most of them over the standard, long in back, giving them problems with a topline that sagged as they got older & less fit. I think the topline on Ricco is excellent & what is more he moved really soundly. I watched him on Saturday. PersonallyI feel he is a great ambasadour for the breed, if I did havea criticism it would be that for me I wold like a litle more masculinity in his head, but that is real nitpicking.
There are at present some GSDs who do move unsoundly, but this is not a health issue so much as an aesthetic one.I know having had a bitch who had not as I've seen on here too low a hock but too long a rear pastern meaning she waved her hocks around on the move, a problem exacerbated by the fact that because I am disabled I was not able to give her the exercise she needed to keep her muscles tight. Neverthe less she lived till she was nearly 15 & until the cancer caused her to collapse as fit & active as many dogs half her age & leapt in & out of the car & on & off my bed with ease. This problem of length from foot to hock seems to be being addressed now in Germany & I can see improvements already. Note this is nothing to do with topline or hip status or health but looks.