GSD takes Group at Westminster Showing

I agree. The photos don't do justice to how crippled this dog actually looks on the move. Very very sad. Why on earth are dogs like this being bred at all, never mind then shown, and held up as a shining example of the best of the best in the US? It is just beyond my comprehension.

The breed standard was set down by those who developed said breed, for the job they wanted it to do.

Its not just a whim of someones imagination, but I agree its all in the interpratation from one to another.


As with the GDS and the BC, be them working or show, they will all fit the standard, then its down to the indevidual to interpate what they like or dont hence the difference in types... but all should be able to do said job, (if they have one)

Sorry but that is complete utter tosh! We have half a dozen working border collies here who do the original job day in and day out, on heather moorland and hill. None of our dogs would "perform" well in the show ring (in fact I am sure some would be laughed out of the ring) - however they can all do the job perfectly well that they were bred and designed to do.

Show BCs are bred and designed to perform in a show ring - no more, no less.

At least that IMO poor example of a gsd, wasn't sired by a blind and def intentionally bred double merl..

Unlike the BOB rough collie.

But the ISDS Border Collie has no breed standard! I think the BC is set apart from all other breeds in that it has its own Registry and Society. It is not part of the KC. The people who developed the border collie were farmers and shepherds - not BC breed clubs.

The BC has never been bred for his appearance, his skills (and look) has been shaped by many generations of breeding for work not the show ring.

Think you've both got the same argument...

Don't think Jackbox was saying dogs need to conform to breed standard in order to do their jobs, rather that if a dog conforms to breed standard (or in order for a dog to conform -blah blah blah) it ought to be physically capabable of doing (or having a go at) what it was bred to do.

Working springers? Working cockers? I imagine a lot of those don't fit the breed standard but do a bloomin good days work.

Helen

No - I think what Jackbox is saying is that if a dog conforms to the breed standard then it is capable of working.

Er the GSDs in the videos from the USA do not move as they should whilst working, the HGH(the German dogs who work stock)do not fly around the sheep/cattle with their heads in the air, They trot(which is why so much "gaiting/trotting is done whilst judging GSDs correctly) with a LEVEL topline(only required in movement not whilst standing)with theirs neck extended forward & the head somewhat lowered, to balance the dog in movement the tail is extended outwards & never ever upwards

& you know this because ????

I didn't say they did it well! But at least the trot makes sense
Why trot a collie? Or a lab or a spanial for that matter

Well that tolg me :? So you don't think a dog needs to have the correct conformation to be able to do a days work ..

Was I .. I think I said a bit more than that. Breed standards are important to the breed concerned. Conformation is a part of breed standards , along with temperament.

Working ability is not enough if the dog is not fit enough to do its job, that goes both ways..

I am surprised you say there is no breed standard for the bc , as seeing as most people can recognise one when they see it , someone must be breeding for a "type"...hence those who developed the breed would have had a criteria to work towards., which becomes a standard .

JB, thats the thing to, people dont have to breed for 'type' if you select for working ability and temprement then the dogs beign to look similar because 'form follows function'
A tiger looks like a tiger because of natural selection of the most sucessful animals for the life they have - noone breeds to type

Breeding border collies for ability means you get the most efficient size to do the job in the terrain (so a medium dog)
With a coat that can cope with all weather conditions (well scottish conditions) (so not too fluffy, dosent require too much attention)
If you look at the working collies you will see appart from that they come in all coat types (including curly and bearded) in just about all colours, all ear sets and all eye colours
Not all of these would be to standard but thats cos the standard was written to narrow by a bunch of people who were more interested in dogs all looking the same than dogs who could save the farmer many hours of work

I think a dog needs to be fit and healthy to do the job for which it is bred and kept. I don't think the BC breed standard has much to do with the working border collie.

I said there is no breed standard for the ISDS border collie There isn't.

If a BC is functional and has proven to be capable of the work required of him, then the form should follow. Obviously, a poorly built BC isn't going to be able to do the daily job as required - that isn't in contention.

Yes people recognise a BC as a BC because they have always been diverse in appearance, the work they have done has shaped the body (and brain) of the end product so to speak.

I would love to see the different types of GSD let loose to stand and move naturally without human interference.

I have often wondered how much different "Alsatians" would look compared to the German type if both were allowed to stand naturally.

The good thing is that you can tell it's a GSD whatever type it is - whereas the show and working strains of Cocker Spaniels, etc, could be different breeds

I know this because it's been discussed elsewhere.

The info isn't hard to find.

http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2012/02/westminster-rewards-cruelty.html

You can start with that.