GSD takes Group at Westminster Showing

I did

it is sad. but dont you see that they were, and still in denial, that there is anything wrong. "they" say we dont know what we are talking about. or we have never shown gsd's so we dont know. it only takes a pair of eyes, a bit of common sense, and a genuine cocern for animals to notice the problems!. it is disrespectful and dishonest of them, to say anything else!!!!

Had a look at the working group too and all those awful cropped ears on the dobes and danes make me feel ill

Will watch the videos at home though

Very interesting how different people see different things in the same dog.

And there in lays the crux of the matter.

EVERYONE will see things differently, breed stanards are written in stone, but the person or persons reading them, may all interprate it differently.

I just watched a bit of the Border Collie group and they look more like the shape and substance of an Aussie rather than that of a BC

ETA: I think the split between show and working collie is more apparent in the US than in the UK.

But I bet they fit the standard!!

I see a Peke won BIS.

But what about working ability and fit for function ... or does conformation and the "breed standard" come before those things?!

Has anybody got a non GSD they could get to 'stack' in this way so i can see what people are saying about it's just the way they make them stand? I would try with Kismet, but I dont think she'd comply

Will all be part of the breed standard.

Conformation is part of the breed standard,

Conformation dictates working ability.

Good idea - I would like to see some as well, although Jesterjenn did post one of hers.

I can't watch any videos at the moment as OH used all our allowance sorting out his laptop, so haven't actually been able to see this dog move.

Helen

Conformation does not dictate the drive for work, therefore it does not dictate working ability.

Yup
and I have to say if those BC's fit the standard then the standard is wrong
Their legs are about twice the width of the collies I know, necks look short (agree very aussie like) and it looks like you could set your dinner on the dogs backside its so flat and wide!!

Also at least the GSD is gaited round the ring as its 'supposed' to move while working
Why do the collies have to fast trot round the ring heads strung up in the air?? What does that show about the movement
Would love to see some of them dogs do a 200m outrun after a day in the field

Agreed, cringeworthy i think is the word to use. All about ears and coat and big domey heads. It worries me it's creeping in over here and spreading

Put aside the Breed Standard and how a dog is stacked. Forget even about the breed. Just look at the videos (not the photos) that have been posted of the GSD and please tell me how he moves on his back legs is healthy to that poor dog. A dog is supposed to drive from behind, but because of the exageration of this dogs back end it has no drive and is very unbalanced and a dog i don't seeing seeing out a natural age

Agree with most you say. I watched all of the breed judging. Alot of thickness is down to heavy coating to the legs, however they are stumpier in the US. BC's should move with their heads lowered, driving from behind, with a level topline. Stringing up seems to be the way in America.
As for the judging. Someone should tell the judge when looking at tail lengh that the hock is not east of the dogs bum but south. Perhaps it's done this way as quite obviously most of the tails were so short.

Without the correct breed standard conformation, it will matter not what drive the dog has, if he cant move or his conformation makes it impossible to work.

Form follows function
AFAIK ALL of the working dogs were bred from dogs who were doing the job asked of them day in day out. Over time the dogs best at their job were selected for breeding and the shape of the breed evolved

Then at some point a group of guys wrote the breed standard based on some of those dogs
But as we are seeing that standard is open to interpretation and fashions and the dogs can change dramatically
Just because a dog fits in with that standard does not mean that the dog would still be able to do their job
Yet there are plenty of dogs who do not fit the standard but are healthily able to do the job they were bred for day in day out for years

For example this boy

Is too leggy for the breed standard. He is too tall, he is not flashy enough to win shows
But
3 of his siblings, his dam, sire and grandsire all work full time on borders hills and are fit as fleas

You just have to keep bearing in mind that the standard is actually just someone's interpretation of what a breed should look like - and we know how diverse taste can be