Teaching a dog to mark.. Training

In the new year I am hoping to find a local shoot and hopefully get Louie on it. We do have a few things to work on however..

Marking is one of them, he's only just learning with dummies and although it is only in the garden - he only tends to go for the one I threw last.. now obviously if he does get on a shoot and he does get to be a peg dog, I don't want him going for the bird last shot instead of the one he is supposed to go for.. At home I can shout "Leave that" and show him which one, but out in the field, if the game is further away it wouldn't be possible - as I doubt I will be able to see him.. (from what I've heard about shoots)

What is the best way to teach this?

Sorry if it's a stupid question..

I think you'll most likely be part of the picking up team, or one of the beaters, peg dogs are with the guns, so unless you or the OH has taken up shooting, it'll be one of the former activities ;-)

It sounds like he can mark, it's just that he needs to learn which one you would like him to fetch. Do you do any steadiness training with him? Throw balls, dummies, around etc while you walk round and pick them up and throw again? And also, do you do any directional training with him, line him up to send him out etc?

You know I meant picking up - why did I say peg.. (OH has expressed interest in getting a gun though)

I did do some directional a bit ago and we do it on walks - I send him into one part of woodland because there is a railway line the other.. so for safety really. But I know it needs improving.. however with obedience training too, I think it's confusing him, I'm teaching him to follow my hand so I can get a better heel position.. but then again, my hand is in a different position - as if it was upon my hip so I'm not certain he can get it confused as I use a straight palm for direction..

I have placed the dummy in a straight line and directed him to it - so I got a straight retrieve - as we were working on that so thats the only bit we have touched on, other than Send aways in class..

I haven't done much steadiness training with him; he knows to sit and wait whilst I hide/throw the dummy, but nothing more, I might ask if we can do some of this at class.. could you expand on Steadiness training for me, so I get it right when explaining and of course training..

Basically, the rule of thumb with picking up, is the dog is used for any birds that you can't pick by hand, so long distances away from you, out of sight so the dog needs to use their nose, pricked birds, runners that scurry off etc.

Steadiness teaches your dog that not every retrieve is meant for them, so you sit your dog, throw dummies etc around, and you pick them all up. When gundog training, the dog should get about 1 out of every 6 or 7 retrieves, so a lot of what you do is building in steadiness so that they don't expect to get *that* dummy.

I'll copy and paste a post I did about directional training:

I said I'd post this ages ago, finally got round to a couple of diagrams, and scanning, whilst I'm sat scanning other stuff for work.

I'll go through each diagram, just a couple of things to note, these exercises are for a dog that is steady, so it will sit without running if you throw something. Steadiness is something you can pracise, starting with a dog on lead if necessary, sit the dog, throw a tennis ball out a few feet, ask the dog to sit and go and get the ball. Steadiness is learnt by repeating this type of exercise with the dog, and teaching it that if you ask it to sit, when you throw something, you still want it to sit until you tell it something else. So lots of steadiness practise required. I teach the sit to a stop whistle, and do this at heel, again, heelwork is good practise for teaching a nice sit to a stop whistle, which you will use frequently during other more advanced exercises. One of my regular exercises with Tau is to sit her, and throw tennis balls around her and over her, she doesn't get to retrieve one of them, I go and pick them up, throw them again, and collect all of them at the end.

So, here's the first set of exercises....


So with the initial exercise to teach left and right to a dog, sit your dog against a wall or fence to give them a straight line to follow. You stand facing your dog, and to start with, you will need to be close to prevent them from guessing, and running either way before you have chance to tell them which ball to go for. If you think your dog isn't quite steady enough to sit while you throw the ball out, but will sit once you have thrown it, you have the option being close up, to step across and prevent them running in. Once you have two balls out, stand close up, and give them the command to stop or sit, either verbal or on the whistle, so they know you still want them to pay attention. I look at the ball I want them to go for, and when I blow the stop whistle, I hold both hands up palm out at about shoulder level, so they can't guess which hand I am about to use, but I don't do that during more advanced exercises, only when close up. Choose which ball you want to send them for, and hold your arm out at a right angle, palm out to give them a big signal *that's* the way I want you to go. When they retrieve the ball, sit them and throw it out again.

When beginning, only do a couple of retrieves then go and pick up both balls yourself, never get into the habit of allowing them to pick up after you, they will start to pre-empt you and think they can have the retrieves.

Teaching 'out' or 'back', you can either sit your dog, walk behind them, and drop a ball, or walk them to heel, drop the ball as you go along, make sure in both these situations your dog has seen the ball. Sit them with their back to the ball, and insist on them facing you, with back to the ball. If they are in the wrong position, do heelwork and get them into the right position. Stand facing them, if you need to be right in front of them because you think they will run in rather than wait for the command, then you need to do more steadiness before doing this one. You should be able to recall your dog from the sit, or send them 'out'. I use the stop command first, as before, and give a clear arm straight up and push out from a balled fist, to a flat palm, giving a clear signal.

The three card trick is something I rarely do, we're not that good, but the idea is, if you have all the other training in place, you can use all three, and even include a recall to get four directions going at the same time. Your dog needs to be very steady, so not for beginners.

Lining a dog up to go out is a little different, and I use walls/fences again to get a good straight line, and preferrably a corner for the ball....


This is me lining Tau up......








You may need to keep an eye on your dog if they think they can go before you give the command, but once they are sat steady, look out to where the retrieve is, and give the command, I use 'get out'. You line a dog up for a blind, or, if you want to make sure they go to one particular retrieve from your side, where there is more than one retrieve out there.

You use walls and fences to build up nice long lines, getting the dog confident that there is always something there for them to retrieve, once the dog is running confidently, you can start moving away from the wall/fence, but carry on sending them into that corner, build up confidence for the dog to go in the direction you are sending it. It's only when your dog is running out really confident, that you can move away from using the walls and fences as a guide, and just ask your dog to run out in a straight line away from you in the direction you want, not necessarily *to* something.

These are exercises that I've been given from much more experienced people, but just thought I'd pass them along if anyone wants to have a go, me and Tau only dabble, but we very much enjoy dabbling. If you do have a go at them, it takes a long time to build up steadiness, it can't be done in a few short weeks, so take your time. Also, look at how you are giving your commands, I am terrible for going to pieces and not giving clear signals, so keep an eye on how you're doing, as well as your dog

If your dog is keen to retrieve, it should mark. IME people get all terribly complicated before they have the basics.

A dog should be "locked on" to the visibile target and you should have to gently restrain it before it goes out like a rocket and picks it up and returns at the same speed.

If you have not got this, it is pointless going any further.

Gradually I extrend the distance until the dog will ALWAYS go out in a dead straight line and will continue until it comes across (or scents) the retrieve.

Until my dog will go out at least 200 yards in a straight line I do not fart about with redirect.

When I do, I go back to VERY short distances. Basically the dog should go to where you point its head. I should think there ae some very good videos of this on the net in many disciplines.

It does not matter which discipline you select, a retrieve is a retrieve is a retrieve.

I keep my dogs on lead during drives sometimes, particularly when it's the syndicate as they bring their dogs and get terribly annoyed if start picking before they've had a chance. (and keeping them on a lead means they don't all pile in at once for one bird, that's something we are working on!)

My dogs watch every bird that flies over, so it makes it easy for me! If I see a bird with a leg down etc, then I just look at whose seen it land and let them go. I take other things into consideration like how far it's gone, if it's over water etc as some of mine can do things better than others. 9 times out of 10 we get the bird!

It's not something the dogs have ever been taught it's just something they do! I've had some awesome retrieves from all my dogs when they've marked a hit bird!

Not helpful to you really, but it might be something he'll just pick up on his own.

Fantastic Info Tarimoor - do you still live up road from Rov'rum? I haven't read it all through thoroughly (just got off an 8 hour shift and had little sleep) but when I have more time, I will

Sarah - I will, one day, come up and join you

SB - Louie will retrieve and he will lock onto a target, he just tends to go onto the one thats been put out last.

He will sit and wait, even with me throwing - that isn't a problem - I taught him that from day 1 (before gundog stuff) because I could never succeed with Sadie and the ball and I wanted to get him to use his nose..

The out like a rocket and return at the same speed is a difficult one, I've noticed - as has Leanne, that when he goes out - it's a spaniel and when he comes back, he's a lab, in the way he holds and carries himself and the speed.. so he's faster going out than he is coming back..

So things to work on next week - sendaways and directions..

Thank you everyone..

Yes I do still live up t' roooood from Rov'rum.

The mistake most people make with training to retrieve, including me, is training retrieves all the time. Basic obedience is what you need in place, for the rest of it to work, so that steadiness, which is really a sit stay, is one thing to really practice. Practice it initially at heel, so every time you stop, peeeeep on the whistle, and ask for a sit. Ask for a sit/stop, walk away, recall, do loads of variations, but make sure that peeep or sit means their bum stays plonked on the floor, no matter what's flying over their head or happening over *there*.

The way that's reinforced, is keeping retrieve training to a minimum, because that is the absolute best game ever for your dog. For mine, there's a huge difference from a play off lead with a ball, to when I switch them into training, where the drive to get it right goes up a notch, not many notches with chocolate Labs, but at least there's a notch ;-)

So get that steadiness training in, reward with something quite simple they can achieve, and end the session on a high note. Build up to the more difficult stuff later with directions, and in the meantime, really read up on them and learn how to use the terrain you've got in front of you to make a good lesson

Fantastic advice there Tarimoor, thank you for taking the time to post all that

Why dont you give that man a call whose number you had, you told me about him yourself but I cant remember his or his kennel name now - not much use I know!

I really think you could benefit from some proper gundog lessons, even if it's just a few to get you started in the right direction.

I may go visit her one of these days, being as she is only up road from me Mum - nah lost the ability to type my accent

Hmm what was it, oh, thats right, it was Dawes Labs backwards 'cos I remember you figuring it out or something like that, hmm might get back in touch with me now I'm earning some pennies.. forgot about him, thanks Leanne.

You'd be more than welcome to pop up, just give me a shout, my work shifts vary, but I'm sure i can squeeze in a demo and explanation. Having said that, my demo girl is due to visit a certain dog at the end of Jan, so any visits after that may well involve puppy cuddles, depending how long after!

Oh won't be up the parents for a while and even when I am it's a short visit then back home.. :/

Thank you for the offer and you'll surely be seeing me at some point

You cannot overdo retrieve training if you have the dog with the right amount of drive, you can EASILY overdo retrieve training with a dog with little drive; that is the difference.

You cannot overdo ANY training if it is the RIGHT training, but you can overdo poor training if you only do it once........

More than welcome, I'll most likely (hopefully) have number four of the girly gang by then in that case.

I'm going to a show down at Matlock & district canine society in Feb, if you wanted to pop along, I'm more than happy for you to pick what there is of my brains

It's a shame Adie isn't still in Catterick, you could've visited him and come to mine and had a play with Hamish and some dummies, he's very good with left, right, back etc etc! You could've got a feel for it and see what you can do with Louie! And seen how it shouldn't be done with Blade!!!

I agree. For a dog with very little drive to retrieve, too much retrieve training isnt going to do anything to improve it's enthusiasm. I've heard it suggested that steadiness training before building enthusiasm is not the way to go with an uninterested retriever. Allowing the dog to run in etc rather than sitting and waiting will build it's drive. Where do others stand on this?

I've got a dog who simply cannot contain his excitement when I get the game bag out and retrieving is such a huge reward for him and he's the only dog i've ever trained to retrieve so I havent much experience of dogs with less drive.

As for marking, I found I didnt have to train Flynn to do it. He watches me like a hawk and when he's done scurries and tests etc he very quickly learnt to keep his eye out for a falling object via other people and he naturally marked them (much better than me most of the time!)

Yes Aimee, it was Balswad - Robert Daws.

I've got varied experience, my dogs, and the OH's, mine are mainly show bred, and don't have such a huge drive, but have built that in following good advice. It's there, and it's something I've learned about Labs.

All the advice I've got from others about this, who have years and years of experience, some competing at high levels, is that retrieves should be kept at a minimum for formal training, why train a dog what it's bred to do? Train for what you need, build in the rest.

But what do you class as a minimum? You obviously have to put in work to make sure they know their directionals and that they can complete a successful retrieve faced with obstacles such as fences, water, banks, disappearing out of view of the handler etc.

When I take Flynn out, I perhaps do one of each kind so i'll do a memory, a blind, a split, a retrieve over the river or any combination of these, and always finish on a success. I never do 3 blinds, 5 memories and so on. Is this what you mean by minimal?

When you break any exercise down into the various parts, for me, the main parts that need to be reinforced, are the basic obedience. So, for example, when teaching directions, you need to have your stop spot on, or the dog pre-empts you, so the focus needs to be on training the sit or stop.

You could start to argue there's a difference between working and competetive dogs, a dog out working quite often sweeping up, will be sent in a direction and left to it's own devices. In competition, the dog needs to be directed accurately, handled with minimum interference, but should respond when asked to do so. Looking at American trials, they're even more of a handling experience, with dogs asked to run to a pin point, and handled within an inch of their life.

For me, from what I've learnt, the dog should need minimum handling, so why rely on directions, if you can send a dog out to the correct place in the first outrun? Why focus on the dazzling tricks, when the basics are the ones that give you what you need to handle your dog accurately? Our dogs are able to learn amazing amounts, I'm forever delighted when mucking about with Tau, to be able to get her to hunt a particular area, depending on which hand I use, and how far over I place the signal, the communication astounds me, but gundog work is about retrieving game as quickly as possible, not gundog trickery training.