Schutzhund - show and working title? Working Dogs

I have noticed that quite a number of well-bred show line GSDs have Schutzhund titles - and would like to know whether there is a difference between the show Sch title and the working dog Sch titles? (As I am sure I have heard as much before).

I am not explaining myself very well, but hopefully someone will know what I mean!

The Schutzhund(or VPG)qualification(rather than "title"which is an americamizm)is exactly the same test for all dogs(regardless of breed or pedigree), adult GSDs cannot be shown in Germany without a minimum of Sch H/VPG I qualification, unless they are HGH(the stock working qualification)qualified

This rule of the SV is to ensure that the dogs that are shown & bred from can still be trained & do some work. All GSDs have also to pass the Körung to be bred from.

Thanks Dyane.

So, interestingly, Zamp von Theromodos actually had a Sch H3 qualification and so as well as being a champion show dog could actually work well too (although was not working line)?

There are many showline GSDs that have or could do well at Sch although many do not have the same levels of drive as the working line GSDs.
At the same time, working line GSDs could also do well in teh show ring but we don't see them at shows here much.

I can see a BIG difference between my 2 male SL GSDs and my WL female. She's a real live wire and is on teh go ALL of the time - whether it's because she's doing training, playing with me or my Son is the garden or chasing bugs etc on her own; whereas the boys will play for a time then stop. They'll go for a run in the park then flop down when we get home.
Even with her bad hips, Jenzi would go all day long if she could and she'll do ANYTHING for her training toy (rolled up hand towel with electrical tape on the ends for me to hold onto it). The boys just don't have that same level of enthusiasm for anything.

I'd suggest that you direct any Sch/training questions to Smokeybear. She knows everything! (Well compared to me she does).

I recently attended a seminar with Bernard Flinks, who I saw last year. I have also attended seminars with Geert de Bolster, Dennis Steurs, Jogi Zank, Ismael de Vos, Ivan Balabanov etc etc.

All without fail have said there is a big difference between how working dogs get their titles and show dogs do.

At the end of the day you can PARTICIPATE in any sport, not everyone COMPETES!

There is a difference.

The Showlines could not COMPETE with the working line for say the WUSV or FCI worlds!

Thanks Stumpy for your experience with regards your own dogs.

Do you find either type easier to live with? (of course depending on what you wish to do with your dogs).

Do you know the differences in how the working and show dogs achieve their titles/qualifications?

Let us put it this way, everything has a price.............

My experience of schutzhund clubs was not good although I am sure not all clubs are the same.

The instructor at the club I went to believed the answer to all problems was electric collars or pinch collars

I did the BH with Sacha and was basically told that she had failed before she went in when the judge advised everyone that they had to have their dog on a check chain on the dead link. Sacha had a leather half check on the dead link. He made everone else change their collar and said "that will do for this dog". She was given insufficient for everything including the long down which she did perfectly :?

The next time when she did pass the BH she was nowhere near as good but passed

I also went to watch a trial with Callan who was at the time about 6 months old. I was forced to take him back to the van as I was told that a pup behind the fence could put off the dogs doing their trials. This same persons dog went on to crotch sniff the crowd and judge in the offlead heelwork and yet still passed

I am sure there are equally bad tales about Agility Clubs, Ringcraft clubs etc etc

Ps it is part of the rules that all dogs wear a check chain/fur saver under test.

The original reason for this was to ensure that nobody could hide an electric collar.

I am sure there are but thankfully I have had no experience of them. Just sharing my experience of the subject in question ;-)

I didn't know that. Just shows how useless the club I was with at the time were for not telling us that

Edited to add when Sacha did go on to pass the BH several months later she was wearing a normal leather flat collar. Nobody told us about these rules then either

Kirsty, have a look on youtube and watch some showline dogs doing protection and then some working line dogs. You will see a difference in the speed and attitude etc

Good idea Fiona, will do.

You are suggesting that all a showline GSD has to do is turn up under a friendly judge & they will qualify-really give me the proof

My friend Petra is an SV VPG judge & doesn't take money to give dogs qualifications(not titles like I wrote before this is an americanizm)if a dog fails an exercise it fails it QED

Now the Korung is something different as there is the "opinion"of the examiner as to whether the dog fits the breed standard

Petra before she was a judge used to train up & handle showline dogs for their qualifications & yes she was paid for her time & expertize, she's not allowed under SV rules to do this now she is a judge

It annoyed me a little as well. My boy is WGSL, his sire has SchH 3 qualification - he got this training at a club that has only working line dogs. Once I can drive/my mum recovers from her op I will be returning to our training club, also only has working line dogs apart from mine.

I am not suggesting that a) all show line qualifications are not worth the paper they are printed on nor b) that all judges are corrupt.

But equally to suggest that malpractice does not go on is equally naive.

This behaviour exists EVERYWHERE including in the BREED show ring, and other disciplines in this and other countries.

I am sure your friend is above reproach, that does not mean ALL judges in ALL countriles in ALL disciplines share the same outlook.

So I am not SUGGESTING anything, I have been told this not only from WORLD CLASS competitors in the sport but also from those who judge and work SHOW dogs (in various breeds from various countries).

I do not have PROOF of this just as I do not have PROOF that corrupt practices occur in many lines of work Dyane, including Obedience Shows/judges in the UK, that does not of course mean that it does not occur.

Really people must stop taking things personally and pretend such things do not happen, of course they do.

Why are you annoyed?

I know SEVERAL show line dogs who have VALID qualifications gained in this country and abroad.

What qualifications has your WGSL dog got?

John Westwood's show line dog was a very good tracking dog, but he did not have the fire for top marks in the sport in obedience and protection.

These are the facts and this is how Schutzhund is judged, it is all about ATTITUDE.

Personally I felt that your statement did IMPLY that all show dogs qualifications were gained in an underhand manner :? Which of course is not true.