GSP - Is there a law that allows gun dogs to be docked? Discussions

It's how breeders get round the docking ban in England with breeds such as Rotties, Dobes, Boxers etc. Only they take them to Ireland.

Personally i find it extreamly sad the length some 'breeders' will go to so they can mutilate their puppies in the name of fashion.

I couldn't agree more! I just don't think the arguments regarding tail injuries in working dogs are at all convincing. I know there werer some studies done (pre ban) which collated information from vets re incidence of tail injuries by breed and cause. Apparently it showed that the most common breed was labs and injury cause was vigorous wagging and hitting off furniture!!

Of course this study could be criticised on many points, but nevertheless it's at least interesting

I belive there is a large study being undertken regarding injuries in working dogs. I await the conclusions with interest (I shall try to find a link).

In the meantime, I'd like to just add the ACTUAL working dogs (ie. those who owe their very exsistance to the fact that they work, such as collies/police/drug detection etc) don't have docked tails.

Sorry to double post, but it appears I am behind the times! It's here
http://www.rvc.ac.uk/News/PressReleases/pr1006_tailinjuries.cfm

Curiously, whippets, lurchers and greyounds were amoungst those most suseptable to tail injuries, but they are not traditionally docked. Could this be due to them needing their tails for balance when running?

Very interesting, but I have to agree with one of the researchers opinion, who states

My pal's younger GWP has had to have his tail taken off to the body because of injury to an un docked tail so, he does not even have a stump. I know of 3 undocked GWP's that this has happened to. I am not a fan of docking but, in these 3 cases a docked tail would have been much better than the no tail that they ended up with.
I would always check GWP rescue 1st before buying a dog but, would choose a docked over un docked in this particular breed.
Saying that a rottie has a stunning tail and I don't know why they were docked in the 1st place.
Docking a dog purly for looks is totally wrong. Docking to stop a possible injury is just permissable in my opinion. I know all undocked gun dogs do not attain tail injury and some would say why do it on the off chance. But, the only 3 GWP's I know that were un docked ended up with injury so, that is 100%.
As I said this is only my opinion so, sorry if this offends. x

The OH says he got a questionairre from BASC the other week regarding tail injuries and docking of dogs etc, for the purposes of gathering data on working gundogs and tail injuries.

I, personally, don't see how a tail is more likely to get damaged over anything else in a working gundog. Surely the big floppy ears (on spaniels) are equally as likely to get caught up and ripped?? :?

I will say though, I have no experience of working gundogs myself, so can't really give an informed opinion on the matter.

OH says he only knows of one dog who had their tail fully amputated after several injuries, but most are docked anyway so no one really knows if full tails are a real problem......

But equally, ACTUAL working gundogs, who owe their very existence to the fact that they work, almost always have docked tails......:?

I'm not talking about sporting dogs. Surely sport is a hobby and not actual work? If shooting were outlawed (I hasten to add, I would not want this!) I'm pretty sure they'd still be HPR breeds who would engage in trials.

Instead, I'm talking about dogs which are used for essential work, like herding, catching criminals, detecting explosives etc. If a sheep farmer coverted to arable he'd have no need for collies and would get rid of them; likewise, if there were no more drugs being smuggled into the UK, Customs and Excise wouldn't have any detection dogs.

Only in our eyes, for the dogs it's all the same thing surely?

I get what you are saying, but people aren't suddenly going to give up shooting? It's still going to happen, so the question is about the welfare implications of docking versus not, and which is going to be worse for the dog in the long run?

Point being, in terms of welfare of the animal, a spaniel working as a drugs dog isn't going to be in a situation where day in, day out, it is hunting through rough undergrowth etc and potentially damaging it's tail, whereas, a working gundog is in a situation where tail damage is very likely (supposedly, like I say, I'm not necessarily convinced by the pro-docking arguement....), hence the need to prevent potential horrific injury by docking?

Why don't the powers that be ban docking of gundogs for say, five years, look at incidences of tail damage in those five years, so that we can actually compare like for like, then make a decision based on that evidence....hmmmm

"Actual" working dogs are not docked because there is no need for them to be docked. They are not hunting through thick cover unlike working Spaniels and HPR's.

I'm slightly baffled that you don't consider working gundogs to be "actual" working dogs? but Border Collies are? a shepherd could function without dogs just as a gamekeeper could function without dogs, but having them makes life a lot easier.

I have no idea which studies you speak of with regard to tail injures, but logically Labs will always come out top on most regardless simply because there are more of them. There were more Labradors registered by the Kennel Club last year than ALL of the HPR breeds put together. So yes you will get more reported injures in Labs.

How is gamekeeping a hobby and not actual work? :?

I dont understand this point. Gundogs owe their very existence to the fact that they work :? Shooting isnt just a field sport, it's also how some people put food on the table instead of going down the supermarket. If shooting was outlawed, there'd still be falconers who'd be in need of hunting gundogs for example.

From your quote above, you seem to be missing the point of what a hunting gundog does. Working sheepdogs, drug detection dogs and all the others are not expected to work in thick cover flushing hidden game for 6 months of the year.

If you are considering owning a Brittany (one of the hardest hunters you could meet) then you should be fully aware of what HPR's do...

I have to admit, when I saw what a "hard hunter" actually means, I could understand the reasoning behind tail docking!!!!!

Me too. How about those people who are employed by estates for picking up, who have spaniels (docked), labs etc to do that job?

I have working gundogs which I need for grouse counting. If I didn't have them, I wouldn't get paid. That is a real job for me and the dogs. The counting dogs even go through my books ;-)

I am very much of the side of docking because I have experience of working an undocked springer. We never got as far as amputation but it was close. The tip of her tail eventually ended up being scar tissue which did resolve the problem, but we had years of pain and heartache for us both. I will never have an undocked springer again.

Helen

JetandCopper

but my point is that surely some of these working dogs are in siuations where their tales could be damaged too. I've seen collies working in undergrowth. They also can have very feathery tails. Surely farmers working dogs in this kind of ground would be more likely to dock their dogs as their livelyhoods depend on it?

Labradork (great name, BTW!)

I put a link to the study on my post;-)

I did say that:
"this study could be criticised on many points, but nevertheless it's at least interesting"

I'm being a bit pedantic, I know, but gamekeepers look after land being used for sport. As far as I am aware.

Leanne W

I doubt that very much. I don't know of anyone in the UK who has to shoot to keep themselves fed. If they are that hard up, why not use the fees they pay for the privelage to shoot game on an estate to pay for a trip to Sainsburys?

Helen

If it is necessary to dock a springer for this purpose, why not a lab?

I'd just like to add that although I am unconvinced by the pro-docking arguments I remain openminded about the issue and genuinely want to find out more.

I am not sure where you get this information, however it is entirely erroneous.

The ACTUAL working dogs you refer to (in the relevant breeds) ARE docked ie sniffer dogs used for drugs, firearms, bombs, cash, CDs, mobile phones (these would be active dogs such as ESS and CS including their crosses except in Wales or passive dogs such as the HPR breeds).

Perhaps if you had some actual hands on experience with MoD, Customs and Excise, Police, Army dogs etc you would have picked this up.

The reason they are docked is that they often have to work in very restricted areas such as baggage holds, vehicles etc and thus a tail could result in a great deal of injury and pain for the dog.

HTH

Ever been to an Field Trial for Spaniels or HPRs?

If you had you would have seen that the absence of tails does not stop them covering ground at great speed!

Ever been to an Agility Show? Does the lack of tails impede the balance or speed of the top dogs?

Have there been any peer reviewed scientific studies that have compared balance and speed of docked v undocked dogs?

Ah so drugs are not manufactured in laboratories here then?

You can remain unconvinced, it is not an issue, everyone is free to believe what they wish to believe.

I am neither rabidly pro nor anti docking, I can see both sides.

Smokeybear.

You are wrong. Tell me where to find GSDs, working for the police/army/C&E where they are routinely docked? I also KNOW that Strathclyde police do NOT routinely dock any of their working dog's tails. You can see picures of undocked spaniels and other breeds on their website.
http://www.strathclyde.police.uk/index.asp?locID=130&docID=-1

I don't know where on earth your information comes from

BTW, I have SEEN Strathclyde's dogs in the fur and KNOW that they don't have docked tails! It's not difficult to see them. They put on displays for the public regularly over the summer months (well, they did. They have had to cut back due to cut backs. If you know what I mean!)

Don't even go there this discusion has been done to death, having seen at least 1/2 dozen spaniels who weren't worked have to dock their dogs for tail damage, and also seeing the state that my friends full tailed spaniel gets into going for a walk i also will not have a full tailed spaniel