BSD Breeders General Chat

both vanistica dogs

norti was just retired recently . ob ch vantisica french eclipse
& i think the other one was gully obch v.gullivers travrls. but he was abit before my time.

Norti's brother was also a Show champion proving my point that the breed should NOT be split into working and showing but is capable of doing both ! -

David Leach has just made up his Bonvivant Malinois bitch and she comes from lines that are super successful in the show ring too ! -

did norti ever win a breed cc? i think he did or st least some breed rcc

I have not said either pet/show or working are "better" than each other, just that it is horses for courses.

The facts remaiin that consistent proven success in a variety of fields is more likely with a dog that is bred for the job, in whatever discipline you participate in.

I also think it is a personal choice; the OP said they would prefer a dog from working lines; I would prefer a dog from working lines; there are others for whom a dog from working lines would be too much; just as a dog bred from pet/show lines would be too "little" for me!

You buy the best tool you can for the job in hand.

We have had full champions in many breeds of labradors (for those who do not know gundogs can only be called Show Champions until and unless they pass the SGWC or have CoM in a Field Trial etc).

There have also been DUAL champions in some breeds eg Terry Hadley's WT Ch GWP which also became a Sh Ch and there are many more.

Exceptions however do NOT prove the rule!

Nobody is arguing that ANY breed SHOULD be split into working and pet/show; the FACT is that many are.

Would a working bred Malinois generally make a good family pet? the advertisements I've seen for them in the past have all said "not suitable for pets, working homes only".

It depends on the lines.

Those bred for Schutzhund do make good family pets and ARE family pets.

Those which are bred from other lines such as those from KNPV or Mondioring lines may not necessarily suit all environments.

I know several KNPV and Mondioring line bred dogs who live in the home with small children and not "top" handlers perfectly happily.

Just as working line labs, spaniels, GSD do.

It all depends on the TYPE of outlets they have and the expectations of owners.

So when you get down to the nitty gritty, you have ones that are bred primarily as sports dogs (making for generally easier house dogs) and ones that are a bit more...hardcore?...the ones bred for police work and more intense protection sports? the latter being not as suited to being house dogs as the former. Or something like that...

Yes more or less.

For example there are many good "sports dogs" in Schutzhund etc. Very high prey drive little natural aggression.

There are other dogs which have "natural aggression" (I hate to use this term as people jump to the conclusion that a dog is "aggressive" which it is NOT) who make very good street dogs and then there are those that we say are "civil" in other words not to be touched by any other than the owner.

I would have thought police dogs (in the UK at least) have to have a very sociable side and definitely with an off switch - so may actually not be as high drive as some of the sports bred dogs.

The police dog instructor I know told me recently (when talking about working line GSDs) there is no mystique in owning a working line dog - they just need plenty of time spent with them, and enough physical exercise and mental stimulation for an active dog. He always had dogs from a well know schutzhund kennel that also bred for the police and his dogs lived with small children and always made very level, social dogs.

Basically, I would say, if you are an average (or below!) dog owner wanting to give your dog a quick trip to the park once a day and do little or no training, and expect to have a dog that sits by the fireside at night, then don't get a working line dog of any breed. However, if you want to include your dog in many of your daily activities, give it plenty of exercise, mental stimulation through training and games then a working line could be a serious contender. That is my understanding anyway :-D

Really interesting discussion

One reason people successfully sue the police over police dog bites is because the off switch isn't always infallible and what works well in a training environment isn't always the same when adrenaline of dog, handler and criminal kicks in a a real life situation.

Some firearm support dogs are GP (General Purpose) dogs who work well on minimal hand signals, others are more specialist "non-compliance dogs" who attack first and ask questions after, without a stand off and bark, even if the target is stationary and passive.

Some of these "sharper" dogs can be difficult to maintain a reliable off switch and unconditionally social outlook with, not least as they tend to love their work and been trained and chosen for their courage, commitment and defensiveness of themselves and their handler, which can lead to over protectiveness and misinterpretation of people's behaviour at times, with training moving on from initially play, to deliberately adversarial.

Hence they sometimes bite the wrong people, or the right people in the wrong (disproportionate) way or without regard to their "off" switch.