West German Showline or Highline GSDs Showing

What is it about the WG show or highline GSD that gets people so hot under the collar?

It seems to me that this type of GSD creates an awful lot of controversy and debate throughout the dog world.

I was once one of the GSD owners who thought these type of shepherds stacked at shows looked deformed and simply not right. However, having seen many of these same GSDs going about their daily business and both at work and play, I can now breathe a sigh of relief that these dogs are in fact (for the most part) well constructed, healthy and happy dogs. Most with excellent temperaments too.

So, why is it that this type of dog is targetted by the general public and also in programmes such as PDE and the DT magazine, when in fact it is the WG showline breeders (as far as I can tell) that do the most rigorous of health and temperament testing. If others know different, then I would love to hear their views too

I too have been to shows where I have been saddened by the way the GSDs looked when stacked. Personally, I am not attracted to the look of showline GSDs, bar some exceptions. That said, some are more extreme than others, and I think I am right in saying that e.g. hip problems are not usually related to the GSDs back or topline, or hind angulation.

I have been around 3 well-bred german showlines owned by friends (one of which trains for Schutzhund) for walks etc and they looked perfectly healthy, fit, active and happy to me.

Is this what I like to call the 'roach-backed' GSD line? (Kinda like how the Porsche Carrera 911 is the roach-backed sports car - so don't take offence!)



I don't know, to me it looks like one of those 'over exaggerations' that can't really that functional for the dog - so why breed for it? The silhouette is ugly to me, he doesn't look like a proper 'dog'. If anything else it causes poor gait and it makes them look far too exaggerated and cartoony. These aren't noble looking dogs to me but instead kinda look like caricatures of shamed dogs with ever scooting bottoms.

I pretty much agree with what Blitzen said, I can't see anything attractive, or functional in stacking a dog in such a manner. I just can't understand why they're forced to stand this way.

This is Ella at around 4 months of age with her right hock being forced to her left.



And this is her at around 10 months standing of her own accord.



She doesn't look as extreme as the dog posted by Codi, though I recently bumped into her breeders with one of their dogs - it seemed to walk in that show stance and the hocks appeared to be wobbling loosely from side to side. Maybe it's the extreme show stance that's the issue as opposed to line of their back ?

That photo looks quite an extreme example, but shows precisely what I am trying to get at. Why stack the GSD to look this way - when walking or standing normally I am sure this dog would look as he should? I just don't really understand it, and would love to know the reasons behind the way the GSD is stacked in this way.

Does anyone on Dogsey show their shepherd and so could explain why?

You can make any dog look awful by stacking them & holding them in position. In Germany stacking of dogs isn't accepted & the dogs are shown at the end of the lead whilst being attracted from outside the ring.

When I was showing my GSDs they were simply trained to walk into the show stance, sadly you will not see this in any UK ring no matter what type of GSD is being shown as the owners are not willing to put the time in to train their dogs to free stand.

I've never stacked any dog I have shown whether it is a GSD, Beardie, BC, Cavalier, Cardigan Corgi, Standard Poodle......(the list is very long) & when I judge I do not allow dogs to be shown stacked in my ring.

Way too many people think the GSD should have a "straight level topline"in stance, the breed standard has never stated this, not even in the very early days, the topline should slope downwards from the pronounced withers to the tail set, this allows the dog keep a level topline in"movement"& means the dog doesn't "run"downhill when gaiting. Dogs with a straight level topline in stance fall on forehand in movement

I think you have hit the nail on the head Michael. For me at least, it probably does come down to how the dogs are stacked - and I would love for someone in the know to explain the reason for it.

The "show stance"has always been with the back leg on the judges side extended & the other back leg further forward. My GSDs often stood themselves naturally in this way when they were watching something or somebody-I doubt anyone really knows.

It's the same as why do Poodle handlers pull the collar & lead up under the dogs right ear when moving, it always unbalances the dog in my view

Interesting, and how many Championship Shows do you judge at per year in how many breeds and of these how many are traditionally stacked eg like HPRs?

How would you go about preventing exhibiting their dogs in the customary fashion and what reason would you give and how does that "stack up" with the KC guidelines for judges and stewards?

Another eye opener for me was all the double handling that goes on around the GSD ring ... but no other rings. Why does this happen?

Custom and practice from overseas. The KC does not sanction it and will step in.

I was nearly run over a few years ago at the British Sieger, it was extremely dangerous, the exhibitors actually knocked DOWN the HUGE sign which explicitly stated no double handling in that area.

Appalling.

One of the reasons I have never attended another, the noise was diabolical, but nothing, I have been told, compared to overseas!

MichaelM, its hard to imagine that's the same dog! Its good to show that when they aren't in proper stance that their backs aren't as sloped.

Admittedly if I saw pictures of it at show stance I wouldn't want the dog; but if I saw the second posted I wouldn't have had a problem. It looks so much better like that!

So double handling in Germany is the norm?

At the Border Union Show, I did see one or two handlers who didn't stack their dogs but left them to stand at the end of the lead, and I have to say they did look good like that.

I can't say I was particularly impressed with the way some of the "observers" outside the ring conducted themselves. The experience certainly didn't make me wish to take up dog showing as a hobby anyway ;-)

really interesting photographs and she is a lovely looking girl

I always though the 'show' stance was to extend the hind leg out so the area from the hock to the floor (sorry its late I cant remember the name of that bit) is at 90 degrees to the floor, and over time the angles and lengths of the joints on the back legs have changed so much that now that leg has to be in a different postcode from the rest of the dog

I also find looking at alot of the show dogs they are less muscled in the back end than the front - watching them move this seems to be because the reach of the back paw is now meaning that the most powerful point of the stride is kind of at the point when the paw is under the hip - whereas in normal dog movement it is when the paw is past the hip so the power is driving the dog forward
In the show dogs I have watched the power seems to be coming from the front end

these dogs

are examples of what i mean (first thing that came up on a search)
when the dogs stop running and are not stacked they naturaly are standing with their hocks very low down to the ground
Also when some of them are moving seen from behind the hocks wobble about a bit as well

I know many people disagree and like the way these dogs are, this is just my uneducated view on it

Just wanted to point out that the vid you posted is of an American Dog Show and that the type represented might not be of correct type eg German Showline. This link shows what I mean.

Well FWIW my uneducated opinion is that the straight/square backed GSD is preferable but as I said, I know nothing about it really.

I'vre asked plenty of times why the GSD has to be stacked and cannot be shown on the lead end standing naturally as other breeds can.

The first GSD picture to me looks almost deformed but I'm sure if he was standing naturally he wouldn't look so exaggerated. However, I think he'd be too curved/sloping towards the rear end for my liking.

Also, what's double handling? (Don't know much do I??)

A "square"GSD would not be fit for function as the GSD is a trotting dog & dogs whose height is equal to it's length cannot gait for hours on end to shepherd flocks or herds as the GSD is required to do. They need a long energy saving stride, with requires the front of the dog to be higher than the rear. Watching GSDs shepherd(& not work as BCs do)sheep the reason for the easy long stride is obvious.

As for double handling it is simply the attraction of a dog in the ring by someone outside of the ring. GSDs are not the only breed this happens in, but unlike the other breeds for which it is used to disguise an iffy temperament, double handling in GSD is meant to keep the dog alert in motion, GSDs are moved much more than other breeds under some judges, this is to test the fitness & conformation of the dog. Double handling for the English Alsatian type is always used to hide iffy temperaments as they are never moved very much in the ring, their incorrect length to height proportions mean even if they were fit, lots of gaiting would soon exhaust them(as some handlers discovered when they entered their Alsatians under me)

These dogs look deformed, poor things.

Just wanted to say what a lovely dog, definitely my idea of a nice GSD (not that I know much about them mind!). Do you mind me asking what lines/kennel she's from?

Could you elaborate? What are the differences between the way BCs and GSD are/were used to herd sheep?