Sussexwolves GSD's Questions

Thanks for your reply Blitzen. I cannot view much of the website unfortunately, as my connection is too slow, but will have another try later.

With so many different types and variations no wonder it can be very confusing!

I think you misunderstood me and took my statement out of the context of the post. As I said, these were just generalisations which are bandied about - I wasn't subscribing to them - I said they did not apply in 'many, if not all, cases'.

To answer you question, I too have met to many WG VPG dogs to count and been to a few Schutzhund trials, as well as worked and owned dogs from WG Schutzhund lines, and would agree with you that that I have 'never had one [or met one] whose prey drive was so high that they couldn't be trusted'. The ones I have known are also balanced with good on/off switches.

I *think* then that we view them in the same way?

Out of interest dyane, when did you last own a GSD, and do you plan for another?

Sadly?
Max von Stephanitz said that you can breed female every time she comes in heat if she is in good health. That will create smaller liters which are easier to take care of by the mother and give birth to. Rather then wait and breed every other or third heat and have big litters which tax the female tremendously.
To breed bitch in second heat ( in this case17 mo) has only effect on her that the female will stop growing. Otherwise there is no problem.But mother nature knows best. Or you do?
FYI I breed usually after 3rd heat.
Prager Hans

Great though Stephanitz was, science, knowledge has moved on a tad since his day..........

Thanks to political correctness people lost a common sense.
What scienctific knowledge is against breeding the same way as mother nature dictates. Can you quote the study with pluses and minuses and scientific reasons?


Prager Hans

LOL
Yes, Czech dogs have 100% bad hips, and all die of cancer in 6 months and are all unstable and will eat your kids for breakfast. And all DDR dogs can not compete. LOL
Where are you getting these information.
E German lines and Czech are carbon copy of each other but according to you one are stable and the other nervy. As far as hips goes, the funny thing is that I breed Czech dogs for almost 40 years and am running about 2%-3% of bad hips and have not have one dysplastic dog in my kennel for 3 years now. Where GSD world wide average is about 49% +/-of bad hips

Sport performance:
The dogs from third line like OrryIT
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=450382
Whose mother Warra Gymor WUSV 1999, FCI 1999,2000,IPO3, SCHH3, ZVV2 is in 3rd male line has titles up to wazoo and his ancestor Grim z Pohranicni straze WUSV 1997(FASE C 99), IPO3, SCHH3, ZM, ZVV3, ZPS1 where this is coming form too.These dogs are descendants of DDR dogs like Iwo v d Buschecke and Gomo vom Schieferschloß and so on.
Thus it is not about DDR and Czech and W German countries of origin, but also about the lines. ( Most people have no clue what lines are however)
Orry for example has little WG and a lot of Czech dogs stemming from DDR but they are mostly 3rd bloodline. That is important.
Anyway, stop generalizing.
Prager Hans

Yeah, stop generalizing..............

I dont need to look at a study
In nature wolves dont reproduce till they are at least 2 years of age and only have 1 season a year
Dogs are domesticated, which means what is natural for them isnt ness right, domesticated animals have their breeding controled by humans

dogs do not suffer the natural selection that wild animals do - meaning that far more dogs grow to an age where they can breed

If all were bred as you think nature intended then the amount of dogs would be out of control

We dont need so many dogs so we have to make sure we breed the best

and to find the best we have to wait until they are mature enough to know what the dog is actually like in temprament, health and looks

we also have to wait till a litter has matured a little to see if the mating was a success rather than just churning out more puppies in the hope that they will be good dogs

Is it normal practice in the US to breed each season then?
I hope not.

just because u can does not mean u should

humans can start their menstrual cycle at 11 years...does that mean they should have babies?its more than just being able to physically do it :-(...... gosh breeders really do twist things to suit what they want to do

No you do not need to look at a study you can just make arbitrary statements as long as they are PC and then just wait for applause.
Nowhere I am saying that we have to do this. I am just saying that it is not as horrific and against the nature as many people put it here. That is breeding at second heat. Even KC rules allow that.
What made me respond was that the person is putting itself on PC high horse,.. higher then the rest by using words like "sadly" and so on.
Also
Wolves are not exactly dogs , thus your example limps. feral dogs breed 2 x per year and if allowed to exist they do just fine. As a mater of fact too fine.
Wolfs as mentioned here usually breed at 2 years,but will and do breed as early as 10 mo if necessary. Like when the area is underpopulated or in captivity Breeding at 2 years is forced by competition of more mature wolves which will not "allow' the younger ones to breed.
Also you say that you need to wait for 2 years to discover the temperament, health and looks of a dog. That is silly. all this is usually obvious much sooner. But yes we need to breed the best and that is the limit on your argument that we would have too many dogs if we would breed every dog every time,... which is not what I have said. As matter of fact I believe that we should not breed 90+% dogs which people do breed . That alone will take care of such overpopulation.
Thus again I have read here someone saying that it is "sad" when the breeding happens under 24 mo. And I am saying that it is not sad and that it is biologically normal and even by KC rules. The SV and "eastern block " ( what ever that is) has no difference in the rule of 18 mo. AKC tbreed limits for dam allowed but not recommended are at 8 months but not more than 12 years old on the date of mating. The sire must be at least 7 months old but not more than 12 years old on the date of mating. As far as age goes.
Really what is going on is that practically there are different speeds of maturity in different lines and in some lines it is OK to breed earlier and in others it is not so much OK. That is based on the actual maturity of the dogs and ability of the breeder to recognize it. . These is nothing sad about it.
I have read that in GB you breed dogs at 12 months so what is the problem in this case?
Prager Hans

So now we compare dogs to humans? OMG!
But lets talk dogs.
The problem is this. GSD is working breed. Thus one of the qualities for which responsible breeder should strive is longevity and long serviceability. These days we see GSDs to be immature up to 3+ years of age and retired at 6years. Thus serviceability is very short. GSD is becoming useless as a working dog. Now that is sad.
It is ruining the breed as originally intended by breeders who consciously and subconsciously promote infantile traits. The old style Czech dogs, about which we are discussing here when we talk about this breeder, are mature much sooner and thus breeding in earlier age is OK.
Prager Hans

Whether or not it is PERMITTED is not the same as being ADVISABLE.

OMG what a load of waffle you are copying & pasting.

Wolves-Only the parents breed in the wild &they rear one litter on average per year for maximum survival rate of the cubs-what you quote re 10 month old wolf bitches having litters is from captive artificial packs kept in zoos & parks

When Von Stephanitz was writing & living dog breeding was totally different from today, he obviously at the start of the breed. Did he hip/elbow test his dogs ? did he encourage it ? Did he even know about Haemophilia ?? Did he insist on all males being tested ?(Haemophilia was known about in the 19th Century in humans)

Answer-No Does that mean that all health testing should stop ??

In Germany the working GSDs do not have a short working life & neither are they retired at 6. This might be the case in the Americas, but it isn't in the Motherland.

None of my GSDs was"retired"from working at 6, they worked on into double figures & as I have written before I have never owned a"show"bred GSD.

What shouldn't happen is that a dog starts work before it has finished growing(this includes bitches working as "brood"bitches)& their ability is assessed.

I know of many working bred gundogs used as "sniffer dogs"that only have a short working life & they are from generations of dogs only bred for work. I know of one "sniffer"dog unit that only uses working bred Border Collies as they start earlier & work far longer than any gundog breed-because for generation the breed has been bred for a long working life

What a sophistry!
OK I address some of it.
OK,... You guys are the one who inappropriately brought wolves into discussion not me.
Also
I have used AKC as an example of other opinions. You are not the only one with opinion and your opinion is not the only one right and the rest is wrong.
Also
You are saying:In Germany the working GSDs do not have a short working life & neither are they retired at 6. This might be the case in the Americas, but it isn't in the Motherland.
You meant in the Fatherland?!
As a matter of fact it the truth . That is why German police does not compete anymore parallel with BS proofung and is using Belgian Malinois in ever larger numbers.
Also i would like to see how many if any GSD serve for law enforcement past "double digit " age.
Where the heck this came from.
Prager Hans

I was talking about faster maturing lines. You have conveniently missed that right? I remember GSD were mature enough in age well under 24 mo to preform any work police will need to work or herding or S&R and so on. We are trying to preserve these type of dogs. But breeding infantile traits is destroying this GSD breed.
Prager Hans

Nope Motherland-that's how my German friends describe their country

As for The German police not having many GSDs & none older than 10-there are an abundance in the areas my friends live in & narry a Malinois in sight. Good number not retiring until they are over 10 & still being fit & healthy-unlike certain Mals used in Scotland as police dogs-a whole litter retired within their 1st year of being licensed !! For"over enthusiasm"in the protect department(inappropriate biting to to Joe Public)

Destroying the breed ??? Well the yanks have already destroyed the US Show-line GSDs, their hindquarters are so unstable they make the English Alsatian look sound !

That is good to hear. However it would be interesting to see their retirement guidance for their K9s. Where I am from one of them is to jump over 1 meter wall without touching it and overcome much higher one. I would like to see these 10 + years old dogs to do it. I am not saying that they are not....I would just like to see it. Aslo if that is the fact I submit that it is an exception to the current situation. I think we can congratulate ourselves if our German shepherd dogs can do it at 9 years and up
Prager Hans