Are Alsations and GSD the same breed? Discussions

How we like to delude ourselves!

rune

Fine by me, remain in ignorance, I really don't care.

Just google it for yourself, don't believe me! Unless you want to argue with the founder of the modern-day GSD, the most popular breed in the world.

I shall continue to live with my wolfie boys - both in my house, and next door! Oh, and the 2 others that live in our village.

the ones with no GSD and dubious and unkown for sure background eh?

Yup, them's the ones!!

btw, there are two "n;s" in "unknown".

Your envious flattery will get you everywhere, Tupacs!

im not envious of nowt (got my own dubious crosses lol).....but as long as ur smiling i dont care...i care even less that my spelling is wrong

the cheaper copies of "The German Shepherd in Word & Picture" are not copies of the First Edition 1923 book. It is this book that contains the TRUE bloodlines of the original GSD. I am not sure whether the latest editions do or don't, but I have found a later edition for sale on Amazon for as little as $50, and a copy of the 2nd edition (1925) on sale on eBay for $500.

Well, seeing you take EVERY opportunity - regardless of the subject matter of the thread - to point out to the whole world how UN-wolfy my boys are, I assumed that you must be pedantic in the extreme.

And would therefore want to have your typo corrected.

You live by the sword, you will die by the sword.

The GSD was not originally from Alsace. Some of the shepherds selected to mate with the dog Von Stephanitz originally bought were from Alsace & during the 1914-18 war Alsace fought with the allies hence the choice of name.

There were various dogs used in the production of the GSD, NOT wolves, and if you have any books on the history you will see the difference between the stockier, heavier types and the more athletic ones;

This is similar to foxhounds in this country which are NOT one standard, they have been bred to suit the type of country over which they hunt(ed); so whilst there is a KC standard, hounds will differ geographically.

You need a different hound (and horse) to cope with the huge open spaces of Leicestershire arable lands than the small, wet, fields of Somerset littered with heges and rhynes.

Von Stephanitz used different dogs from different regions to produce his archetype that is why some old ones are very similar to Malinois in looks and others more solid.

You learn something new everyday

Funny that isn't what Von Stephanitz wrote in his book, a copy of which I have which I have somewhere.

The name wolf dog in the UK came from one of the Army officers who brought back some of the dogs along with Lt Col Baldwin just after the war, he thought they looked like a wolf(which they didn't & still don't.

Can you tell me where Von Stephanitz stated that Horand von Grafrath(previously Hektor Linksrhein) was half wolf ??? Neither his father or mother were wolves

You might have to wait for a reply as Gnasher is currently taking a basket of cookies to her Grandma ;-)

You need to make sure your copy is dated 1923 - which is the first edition of his book. After that date, the next editions were "doctored" to remove all mention of the dreaded w word.

I will need to look this up, as my memory may not be right, but I believe Horand, previously called Hektor, was prior to that known as Elkein, or something very similar to that name. Elkein was one of the 4 wolf crosses - not sure whether Elkein (or whatever the name was) was Horand/Hektor himself, or father or grandfather.

And to say that GSDs don't have a wolf look about them is just about as daft as saying that the moon is made of blue cheese!

Phew!! Only just escaped with my life as well!!

Unfortunately, I cannot afford the $500 to buy a copy of the First Edition of Von Stephanitz's book, but if you google extensively enough you will find out that what I am saying is correct.

Yes I can tell you where Von Stephanitz states that within the entries SZ41-SZ76, there are 4 wolf crosses.

Please see the quote below - taken from his original book:

In the original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutsche Schaferhunde (SZ), within the 2 pages of entries from SZ #41 to SZ #76, there are 4 Wolf Crosses.

Here you go Joedee - I thought I had read that Horand was originally called Elkein -

"In 1899, Von Stephanitz was attending a puppy show when he was shown a dog named Elkein Shekletor. Elkein was 1/4th wolf. Elkein was the item of numerous generations of selective breeding and completely fulfilled what Von Stephanitz believed a functioning dog really should be. He was pleased about the potency of canine and am taken from the animal's intelligence and loyalty, he purchased it immediately. Finally , before using canine he changed its name to Horand von Grafrath and Von Stephanitz founded the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (Society for the German Shepherd Dog). Horand was declared being the very first German Shepherd Dog called the first dog put into the society's breed register.
Horand was crowned centre-point of the breeding programs and was bred with dogs owned by other society members that displayed desirable traits. Although fathering many pups, Horand's most successful was Hektor von Schwaben. Hektor was inbred with another of Horand's offspring and produced Beowulf, who later fathered an overall of eighty-four pups, mostly through being inbred with Hektor's other offspring. From the original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutsche Schaferhunde (SZ), from the 2 pages of entries from SZ #41 to SZ #76, there are 4 Wolf Crosses."

The famous Horand, father of all modern day GSDs, was one quarter wolf.

he was a csv

Some of us do not have to google and rely on the net for information......... Some of us have attended seminars with international breed specialists

Could well be! No reason why they shouldn't have been Carpathian wolves - more likely to be Carpathian than Timber for sure!