Are Alsations and GSD the same breed? Discussions

Tell me the story - are they the same dog, are they different, I'm confused. :?

same thing

really bugs me..i sooo often get told Alsations are the short haired GSD are the long

...isnt it meant to be because of 'the war' or have i got that wrong.

I thought that too.

My theory/story or messed up believing is that Alsations were from Alsace Lorraine - in France then when Germans took over they renamed the dog GSD but they never changed the name back. Which would conclude that Alsations are the same but GSD's really originated from France - would it not?

There is not a lot on the internet about it though...:?

Wait I tell a lie - it's wikipedia so I'm taking it with a pinch of salt here:

So have we English just come round to the idea of calling them GSD's instead?

Also found this:
http://www.alsatians.com/Alsatians.htm

I also thought Alsations were white or the is it Sable (the grey coloured ones like Tupac) and GSD's were the black and tan and blonde dogs?

It was the ''alsation wolf dog ''for a while too..

Hey! we're already confused, don't be bringing more into it

Alsace is frequently mentioned in conjunction with Lorraine, because German possession of parts of these two régions (as the imperial province Alsace-Lorraine, 1871–191 was contested in the 19th and 20th centuries, during which Alsace changed hands four times between France and Germany in 75 years. Although the historical language of Alsace is Alsatian, a regional German language.

I think GSD/Alsatians stared off as a eupropean dog (mostly bewteen France/Germany) in the 1800s but I believe In 1899, Von Stephanitz was one of the main people for kick starting a society what we know today as the GSD/Alsatian?

So pretty make it a German dog, as most stock produced was probably of German bloodlines.

Again, we are in total agreement - how unusual is that!!

Just a little bugbear but it's Alsatians with an a, not an o.
I think it was recently decided that they would no longer be recognised as Alsatians by one of the large organisations, can't remember if it was AKC or another.
There is apparently an Alsatian Shepherd Dog but this isn't a GSD.

eeek! lol

The correct history of the name Alsatian being given to the GSD here in the UK is quite simple.

After WWI there was such anti German hatred here in the UK that anything/person remotely connected with Germany was subject to vicious attacks(killing Dachshunds for example). Some GSDs had been captured along with German POWs & the dogs were brought back to the UK.

They were not the best of examples of the breed, but were recognised by the KC, the subject of their name was a problem, Lt-Col Baldwin(kennel name Picardy one of his first dogs was Cilla of Picardy correct name Cilla du Han obviously changed) along with others offered the name of Alsatian Wolfdog as they had seen one or two in Alsace Lorraine & they looked like wolves(not). After a short time the Wolfdog was dropped(for again obvious reasons fear of this wolf crosses )

Over many years breeders/owners of GSDs from German bloodlines directly & the SV in Germany fought the KC to change the name & drop the Alsatian. The KC instead changed the name to Alsatian(GSD) in the 1930s Eventually in 1978 when Malcolm Willis put forward using the correct name a famous & influential Bull Terrier breeder, handler, judge & owner, Raymond Oppenheimer CBE, proposed a compromise of GSD(Alsatian)which was passed.

Then finally the KC has dropped the erroneous Alsatian altogether, whilst still allowing the Alsatianists to keep the name in their breed club names May be in another 30 odd years they will remove that concession too.

It's Alsatian Shepamute another designer breed from the USA

People will say we're in love!!

Aka that lovely old song ...

"Don't sigh and gaze at me!
Don't tra la la la la.
Don't ta la la la la.
People will say we're in love!!"

They were called "wolfdogs" simply because that is what there were - the founder dog of the modern day GSD - Von Stephanitz's Hektor, later name changed to Horund (or the other way round, can't remember) was a 50% wolfcross. From Hektor's/Horund's loins come all the modern day GSDs - thus making them all wolf crosses

Ahh so it is - why did I put an o when I put an a in my google search :?

Thank you all for the history lesson and information - now unconfused.

Here is an excerpt from Max Von Stephanitz's book published in 1923 and entitled "The German Shepherd in word & Picture"

In 1899, Von Stephanitz was attending a dog show when he was shown a dog named Hektor Linksrhein. Hektor was the product of few generations of selective breeding and completely fulfilled what Von Stephanitz believed a working dog should be. He was pleased with the strength of the dog and was so taken by the animal's intelligence and loyalty, that he purchased it immediately. After purchasing the dog he changed its name to Horand von Grafrath and Von Stephanitz founded the Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (Society for the German Shepherd Dog). Horand was declared to be the first German Shepherd Dog and was the first dog added to the society's breed register.

Horand became the centre-point of the breeding programs and was bred with dogs belonging to other society members that displayed desirable traits. Although fathering many pups, Horand's most successful was Hektor von Schwaben. Hektor was inbred with another of Horand's offspring and produced Beowulf, who later fathered a total of eighty-four pups, mostly through being inbred with Hektor's other offspring. In the original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutsche Schaferhunde (SZ), within the 2 pages of entries from SZ #41 to SZ #76, there are 4 Wolf Crosses.". Beowulf's progeny also were inbred and it is from these pups that all German Shepherds draw a genetic link. It is believed the society accomplished its goal mostly due to Von Stephanitz's strong, uncompromising leadership and he is therefore credited with being the creator of the German Shepherd Dog".

It is possible to buy a copy of the ORIGINAL German studbook from Amazon, but it is priced around $200 unfortunately and beyond my pocket. Legend has it, that the original studbook was smuggled out to the United States, leaving behind no evidence of any wolf blood in the GSD lines.

But it is there, as is evidenced by their handsome wolfy looks.

My apologies too - I misspelled "Horund" - it is "Horand".

It is possible to buy a copy of the ORIGINAL German studbook from Amazon, but it is priced around $200 unfortunately and beyond my pocket. Legend has it, that the original studbook was smuggled out to the United States, leaving behind no evidence of any wolf blood in the GSD lines.

mmm funny that. BTW the price I last heard was far more.
Who`d have thought that a vast conspiracy exists to HIDE the fact that wolves are in recent GSD bloodlines (therefore gsd crosses with nothern breeds bring real WOLF blood into them so see they are wolves, told you, ner ner ner..) and you can BUY the proof on EBAY for only a few hundred bucks! Wow!!!!!!!!!
You`d have thought those crafty Germans would have caught onto the marketting opportunity, really, wouldn`t you?

It was - the last time I looked it was around $200.

I wouldn't call the early '20's particularly recent wolf blood, but it is there, in black and white, in the original Von Stephanitz bible.

For very obvious reasons, the fact that the most popular breed of dog in the world - the GSD, or Alsatian as it used to be called - contained a high % of wolf blood, would be very disconcerting to a lot of people, wolves in general having an appalling press. The original studbook was safely hidden in the States, and the GSD society or whatever they called themselves back then set about busily hiding all reference to wolves. Luckily for the sake of history, and thanks to the internet, a few copies of the original studbook/Von Stephanitz's book came up for sale on Amazon. Whether they are still there I have no idea, but the last time I looked they were going for around $200 a pop. Obviously someone has a copy of the original, and is selling off copies of that copy, and why not.

I really don't care either way, but when wolf crosses were illegal here, it used to make me smile that we were living next door to two "legal" dogs (a male and a female GSD) - whilst mine, who was probably less wolf content than the 2 GSDs, had to have his origins kept secret!