as alot of you know im on the hunt for my next dog which is going to be a bigger dog than i already have, and i want to work it in some way. its out of four breeds at the minute. two of these are gundogs. the two gundogs are the flatcoat retriever and the weimaraner. ive had alot of experience with a flat coats so im not too worried about owning one of those and what it would entail. im really interested in weimaraners too though, dont know where the interest comes from as everyone in my family doesnt particularly like them. what i wondered was how much harder is it to train a hpr than just a retriever? are there other things i would have to look out for? obviously a hpr has a higher prey drive than a retriever, but with weimaraners are there any other temperement issues, the couple ive met while working at the kennels has had mixed reviews. alot of them seemed quite wary shy and in one case very snappy. but i know with weims alot got bred for the pet market so temperments could be an issue there. sorry for rambling. do any of you have both a retriever and a hpr and could give me a comparison between the two, and what you dislike/like about both?
From what I know and I am just generalising hear I am sure there are lots of different exceptions but.... Retrieves - bred to be a peg dog, sit qietly wait for retrieves then return, all quite focused on being with / returning to handler. HPR - Bred to get out and get moving having to search far and fast and often not as happy to sit around like a retriever and less focused on being with the handler. Retriever - less to teach so less that could go wrong.
Forgot to say - ob we have HPRs but have seen lots of labs on shoots / have walked them / have walked flatcoats aswell and in general they stay with me / their owners more than HPRs and hunt less.
I've got one of both, but obviously all dogs are individuals and temperaments vary wildly! Just some observations from my two...my retriever is much more eager to please and biddable, but then they are bred to work closely with their handler. HPR's are bred to work at distance from the handler and use their own brain a bit. HPR's tend to think on their own two feet more while a retriever will sit there waiting for you to instruct it as if to say "whats next"? If you are familiar with Flat Coats then Weimaraners will be a shock to the system as they are a totally different kettle of fish; like apples and oranges. I'd suggest a retriever breed first and foremost if you are interested in and new to gundog breeds. Then if you want more of a challenge, consider a HPR.
Perhaps along with a Brittany, a Weim is one of the most challenging HPR's. They are perhaps the most headstrong, they work differently (more likely to track a scent rather than wind it and point - not saying they dont point of course) but from what i'm told they have a strong retrieving instinct. There is a belief that a HPR is either a fantastic hunter and pants at retrieving or pants at hunting and fab at retrieving! As people have said, retrievers are bred to sit on the peg until sent out to pick up. They are generally calmer and more willing to sit patiently until told what their next move will be. Patience isnt a HPR's strong point, they want to do, do, do, not sit, sit sit! You must remember the order the words come in as that is the general order of their instincts - hunt, point, retrieve so hunting will very much be on their mind! Training is far more complex too. As well as training retrieve work, you have to learn how to hunt a dog correctly taking in the wind, obstacles and weather conditions as all affect scent. The dog will work this out far quicker than the handler but it is up to us to understand why our dog is working in the way it is. Then there is the pointing aspect. Some dogs will want to rush in, others are sticky so teaching your dog to be steady and flush only on command, as well as not to chase, can be challenging. Then of course there are the behaviours which follow the flush like the sit to flush and the sit to shot, marking of the retrieve etc. Then comes the retrieve if you indeed want your dog to complete the task. Depending on what you do with your dog depends on which of their skills you will utilise. Falconers for example dont bother to teach their dogs how to retrieve as they dont need that from their dog and thats a shame IMO. Anybody who trains gundogs will say that as a beginner with them, it's better to ease yourself into it with the retrievers and then take it from there. Anybody whom i've told that Flynn is my first gundog kind of suck air through their teeth and shake their heads, and i've failed him in that way as I knew nothing. HPR's are complicated compared to retrievers and there is so much to take on board.
thanks for all the replies guys theyve been really helpful i think to be honest it will be the flatcoat for the simple fact i know so much about them, i know how their minds work. i think the only way for me to consider a weim would be if i could do the same type of thing with the weims too. i can handle 6 flatcoats on my own, all off lead. somehow i dont think id be able to do that with weims! my uncle who was a gamekeeper until last year, said hprs are the hardest dogs to train to work, and he would never have a weim! should take that on board really he has a lab a springer and gwp. the only thing that puts me off the flatcoat is the such a high risk of cancer in the breed, but other than that i do absolutely love them. which suprises me, because they werent a breed id look at and think "god i just have to have one of those" at least ive got my breeds down to 3 out of the 4 then by ruling the weim out. the other two breeds are meant to be very high maintenance though (theyre both in the working group) but i havent put as much thought into those two yet because of where i live.
Retrievers tend to be handler dependent, hence the choice of labs, goldies, flatties, curlies and their mixes etc as Guide Dogs. HPRs are less so, again the degree of independence varies between breeds. Weimaraners are probably the "hardest" of the gundog group; they are also, on the Continent NOT in the same group as GSPs for competition as they are here. Not a lot of Weimaraners do well in FT not because they are not capable but they are not as "flashy" as GSP etc as they hunt more with their head down and are predisposed to tracking more than air scenting. A Retriever just retrieves, from land and water. An HPR hunts, points, flushes on command, then retrieves tenderly to hand from land and water. HPRs have to have a lot of initiative, Retrievers do not. I have had 4 Weimaraners, and the difference between a FCR and a Ghost is that when you say "jump" a retriever will say "how high" and a Weimaraner will say "maybe I will, maybe I won't" Few people are consistently successful at top level with Weimaraners............. Nothing to do with the ability of the breed.................
when i say work them i dont mean in trials with them. and wouldnt want to get them at a top level. if i worked them properly, i mean at shoots, working with game. do you have any pictures of your lot? id like to see them
You do realise I have a longhair? I don't store any photos on the net, http://www.weimaraner-association.org.uk/feature.php bottom of this page http://www.weimaranerclubofgreatbritain.org.uk/wcthebreed/longhair.shtml http://dogoftheday.com/archive/2004/August/14.html
