Desparate help needed GWP Behaviour

I`m glad the dog is going back to the Rescue - this time with all the info on him, which I assume they didn`t have before.
I hope your friend recovers from her tumour.

The rescue co-ordinator has now changed so hopefully the GWPC rescue will be better managed and things like this wont happen again.

IMO, if you take on any kind of hunting dog there is a bloomin good chance it will have a high prey drive. I've seen dogs before on the site advertised because they've attacked livestock so it's something you should be very aware of if you take on a GWP, especially a second hand one.

I'm glad he's going back to rescue and i'm sure the appropriate home will be found very soon.

I don't think the dog is going back to the rescue? Just being listed on the website. If the current owner is keeping him in the meantime please make ask her to keep him on-lead or on a longline from now on, it would be terrible for the perfect home to come forward only to hear the dog has been shot for worrying sheep.

And muzzled, too...

I am sure there is the right home out there for him somewhere. He is the sort of dog I go for funnily enough. My last dog was a foxhound cross GSD who was just as bad as my pals dog and I sorted her out. Unfortunatly, I am a one at a time owner.
She won't be letting him off at all from now on.

What a terrible shame for your friend :-( It sounds like a complete nightmare.

GWPs are known for having a high prey drive and so I am not really surprised to hear this kind of tale :-( I can also understand that she feels the need for this type of dog to be in a home where he can stretch his legs without the fear of him chasing and killing livestock and so I think the best course of action is being taken, ie to get breed rescue to advertise him again to a livestock free environment. I do wish her all the best in finding him a new home. Perhaps a working home might be suitable, where his energies could be channelled into gundog work, and his livestock obsession trained out? Just a thought.

This may help others:


Over the years I have read and listened to a great deal of misinformation on the subject of dogs and sheep and so I thought it might be useful to put some old wives tales to rest; in particular that ‘sheep worrying is never carried out by friendly household pets’; that it demonstrates “aggression”; that ‘putting a dog in a pen with a ram/ewe will cure the problem’; that ‘sheep worriers must be put down’. None of the above is true and there are various degrees of unacceptable behaviour within individual dogs.

First the law:

Under the Dogs (Protection of Livestock) Act 1953 the owner and anyone else under whose control the dog is at the time will be guilty of an offence if it worries livestock on agricultural land. The dog must have been attacking or chasing livestock in such a way that it could reasonably be expected to cause injury or suffering or, in the case of females, abortion or the loss or diminution of their produce. An offence is not committed if, at the time of the worrying, the livestock were trespassing, the dog belonged to the owner of the land on which the trespassing livestock were and the person in charge of the dog did not cause the dog to attack the livestock. The definition of 'livestock' includes cattle, sheep, goats, swine, horses and poultry. Game birds are not included.

Even though our dogs have been domesticated for a long time they have not lost their basic instincts; these instincts include a very strong predatory drive especially in breeds such as those from the HPR group (which is why we use them in the field).

It is most unhelpful when a sheep chaser /worrier is described as vicious. If a terrier is a good ‘ratter’ or a lurcher a good 'rabbiter' they are admired for their skills. They are not considered to be aggressive!

Chasing livestock is quite rightly unacceptable in our society. How do our dogs know this? As with many rules we make for our dogs this probably doesn't make any sense at all to them! Especially if we allow them to chase other things! So the first thing we need to accept is that we should NEVER allow our dogs to chase ANY animal. Each and every time a dog practises stalking, hunting and even catching their prey the better they get at it. It also means that their lives and maybe the lives of others may be put at risk should they get out onto the road during this activity.

To say as some owners do that “I let my dogs chase squirrels/rabbits but it knows that it should not chase cats/dogs/sheep/cows/joggers etc” is to invest the dog with an unrealistic degree of discrimination!

Many people have to exercise their dogs near livestock. It is therefore essential that dogs are taught how to behave around it and that owners have full control of them at all times. Whilst it is acknowledged that dogs should be kept on leads when livestock are present, there is always the possibility of a stray animal suddenly appearing.

Be aware it is not possible to predict whether a particular dog will attack sheep or not until/unless it has been exposed to them!

Farmers, understandably, are not sympathetic towards dogs when their livelihood depends on their livestock. Attacks on sheep are emotionally, as well as financially draining. Surviving animals usually do not produce as well; ewes may abort unborn lambs and injured animals endure pain and require veterinary treatment. Farmers can shoot dogs and may do so without a second thought. So you can understand why concentrating on teaching dogs (and their owners) how to behave around livestock is of the utmost importance. So where do you start?

Firstly, it is important to recognise that most dogs accused of sheep worrying are not sheep killers but simply have a chasing problem. Simply? It can feel like a major problem to the owners of such dogs but as you probably know, there are simple ways of teaching a dog to control his predatory drive. There are also ways of reinforcing control of a dog when 'in chase'

Chasers

These dogs are the most common. They only react to the sheep if they are moving or if they can get them to move. They may nip them but no major damage is done. It is not aggression. This is no different to them nipping us when they get over excited. If they catch up with them, they lose interest. Problem can be eliminated through training and socialisation.

Bay Dogs

Dogs that fall into this category usually show interest when the sheep are moving or they can get them to move. They differ from chasers in that once they have caught up with the sheep, they then either 'hold the flock' to a fence or sometimes bring them back to their owner. They take this no further and are easily called away. Problem can eliminated through training and socialisation.

Separators

These dogs usually focus on the weakest sheep when they do or do not move. Separators take the predatory sequence a little further. Once they have the flock moving they will pick out a weaker sheep and separate it from the flock. They will then ignore the rest of the flock. They may just hold the 'chosen' sheep or may even nip it, but they do not attack it. Problem can eliminated through training and socialisation. Sometimes aversion may be needed.

Learned Killers

These are dogs who through circumstance have learnt to kill. Once experiencing the thrill of the chase, this instinct comes to the surface. Once this type of dog has killed they need to be treated as Born Killers . Problem can be minimised through training. Aversion not effective, therefore not used.



Born Killers

A dog of this type is born with the urge to kill. That is, its predatory instinct have always been to the forefront rather than suppressed as with other dogs. Whilst early socialisation can reduce the probability of this instinctive behaviour developing, you can not train the urge to kill out of a dog. You can simply control it. Problem can be minimised through training. Aversion not effective, therefore not used.

Many people will advise the use of the electric shock collar. Research has shown it can actually elicit aggression in some cases. Putting a dog in a confined area with an aggressive sheep has limited success and can have an adverse effect. Some dogs can develop a hatred of sheep resulting in the desire to attack becoming even stronger.

If either of these approaches have succeed in stopping a dog chasing and 'attacking' sheep, then were not born killers. So, as you can see, as with all dog training, there is no ‘one size fits all’ approach and indeed if the urge to kill sheep is very high no electric collar or electric fence will restrain such a dog!

Also the use of an electric collar requires flawless execution which means excellent timing and understanding of how to use it which is slightly more complex than merely attaching the collar to the dog and punishing it for chasing!

However, allowing a dog in a field with a sheep who will stand their ground can have a beneficial effect. In a field, the dog has the opportunity to make the right decision - TO LEAVE!

Alternatively of course there is environmental management eg not exercising the dog near livestock, keeping it on a lead or long line or rehoming such a dog to a home where it will never come into contact with livestock and therefore not be a danger to itself or anything else.

Also, most owners may well have “proofed” their dogs amongst fields of sheep but are surprised if and when their supposedly “sheep proof” dog will chase a singleton which appears out of the blue on the moors say.

This is due to a phenomenon known as SEC (Sudden Environmental Contrast); which is one of the reasons a dog will chase a hare when it has been rock steady in a rabbit pen!

Prevention is always better than cure so one of the first things I recommend for all new puppy/dog owners is to find someone with sheep who will enable you to habituate your dog to sheep; no matter how many miles away! It is a very worthwhile investment. However, please remember that ongoing exposure is required to ensure good desensitization; one visit is not enough!

Angela Stockdale runs Livestock Socialisation Classes and Workshops where dogs are introduced to stock and are then taught how to behave around them. Potential chasers are identified at an early stage and the problem is solved before it develops. Some of the above information has been reproduced from her website with her permission.

I remember reading all that on Angela's website. Very useful. Do you know her success rate for rehabilitating sheep chasers/worriers/killers?

As she says sometimes all you can do is manage this.

I wrote the above article in response to someone yet AGAIN recommending putting a dog in with a ewe etc; this is NOT an answer as this only teaches the dog a) to avoid sheep when confined and b) sometimes increases the desire to kill.

When people understand prey drive properly they realise that it is not just about proximity, but the chase etc.

I had a dog who was a born killer and my friend had a labrador which was one, you just make sure they cannot access sheep.

Best to speak to Angela direct re rehabilitation of serious cases, because this sort of training has to be MAINTAINED which can be difficult if you do not have safe access to sheepp.

Have been to AS and to be honest would avoid her with the largest barge pole I could find.

She did untold damage to Millie yrs ago, and would NEVER recommend her to anyone!

Although others see her as the best thing since sliced bread, all depends on your experience I guess!

Shes keeping him. Harness, lunge rein, muzzle. She can't bear to let him go. Her other GWP would pine for him to.
Thanks for all you're replies. x

Thanks but just interested really. My young GSD was a chaser but hubby managed to persuade him it wasn't a good option so he is fairly broken of the habit now.

Would you mind letting us know what it was that AS did that caused the damage?

I wish her all the best with him

There is a thread on it somewhere in the archives, it was very early on when I was trying to sort Millies aggression out, she was about 3 ish.

A S used one of her stoodge dogs on her, (never met a more aggressive GSD in my life, it attacked Millie and frightened her to death, she then decided to use a halti on Millie, (who had never had one on before) and fought against it, A S dragged her round a field, poor girl had a terrible cut face at the end of it.

I am sure some may have good experiences with her, but mine was the worst, sometimes in desperation we allow and do things to our dogs , that make us feel uneasy, a lesson learnt for me that day, never ever to allow anyone to do something o my dogs I dont like.

It took me mths to get Millie over that experience, and swore never ever to let anyone near her again.

Good news!!

Aw, bless her. I wish her all the best and hope the boy settles to enjoy his outings.

:-( Yes I can quite see why that experience would put you off!

She WILL sort it out. She is a bit like me. Damned determined. I will not give up on my dogs and believe me, some of them have really put me through the mill.
She loves him.

maybe she could get one of those walky dog attachments and go cycling with him?

Where theres a will theres a way! good on her