Need some help if possible guys (Bernese breeders) Questions

I know most of you are not into Bernese but a lot of you know about breeding and what to look for.

We have decided after looking at and researching a lot of other options that the Bernese is the only way to go for us again, but the problem is finding a good reputable breeder.

I have been in contact with a person who is well known in the breed and gives advice but at the moment my head is all over the place what she says makes a lot of sense but it has unerved me that I may make mistakes again. When we got Ollie I did a lot of research on the breed and we went and met them in the flesh before making a final decision about this was the breed for us. It is all well and good reading they get large especially the males but I felt we needed to see just how big and we did and we were happy we would cope with the size which we did.

The problem is I thought I had found a good breeder we visited many times no problems and we met both parents both hip and elbow scored and good temperaments and all the dogs had lived good long lives unusual for Bernese to live as long as some the breeder had. In fact all the dogs we met had good temperaments we felt we had done everything right.

I have learnt this weekend this breeder is not very well thought of and it seems I may of made a terrible mistake. I didn't know then there was this person I could go to for advice and help I had never owned one of this breed before my last dog was a mongrel and we lost him early so we thought this was the right way to go in fact we had never owned a pedigree dog before Ollie. So when puppy contracts were offered meeting all the dogs including both parents seeing hip and elbow scores and the offer of if for any reason we could not keep him he was to be returned we thought we had done well.

I am now feeling sad and unsettled about it all after what I have learnt. Of course we wouldn't of changed Ollie for the world even with all his problems and I still feel he was meant to be ours because no one else would of understood him or dealt with his issues and later his illness like we did and still love him. Thats by the by now done and gone and nothing can change that.

So after all my waffling sorry, how do you people that breed and are into buying pedigree dogs know you have found a good breeder I have some pointers but am feeling overly cautious now. I have been told not to buy from breeders with a website advertising puppies. Makes sense but I am a little suprised I know about adverts etc., and although tempting would not buy a puppy through those channels anymore than I would from a pet shop I have learnt a lot since joining Dogsey.

I have been told not all people on the KC accredited breeders scheme can be all they seem to be.

I have been given 3 numbers to contact out of a choice of 6 I had made thinking I had done well this time obviously not. I had whittled them down.

None of these people advrtise you get to know through knowing someone. All well and good when you know where to ask etc., but what about if you don't ?

Do you feel this is right or am I being overly cautious ? I know even through good recommended breeders you may still have some health problems after all the breed has a lot I am not naive about that but this time I would like to feel I have done everything right and maybe have some more time than I have had previously.

I know its a minefield and I think I needed to get my worries off my chest and see what you thought if you have managed to keep up with this waffling thread.

I dont understand the bit about the breeders advertising on their websites (or do you mean on pup selling sites?). Many decent breeders will advertise puppies or their plans for the up and coming year on their website, on the KC site, and CD. Most will have waiting list, but sometimes people drop out or are not liked by the breeder on visiting, theres more pups that avarge born ect - so breeders have no other option than to advertise. I wouldnt worry to much about where you find the advert (to a certain extent) let that be for a pup or for the plans of a mating - its more important that you 'vet' the breeder.

You can contact breed clubs, and look through breeders on CD & you could also visit shows. (even if not wanting a show pup!) Visiting shows are a good way of meeting breeders within a breed, seeing their dogs out of the home enviroment and talking with them possibly planning a litter.

You are very right in saying that all breeders on the ABS are not all that - but things are changing and improvements are being made..They have started 'home checking' breeders and about time to I believe..even if a little late..we have been on the scheme for a number of years now, but only recieved our visit last year - so it is going to take a while to weed out the not so good, and even then I believe some unethical breeders will remain as it will be impossible to rid all.

we all look for different things in a breeder but for me I (ideally!) would look for the following in a breeder;

- A breeder that has bred for a reason, with an aim for the litter (this comes down to me not being in fav of breeders, breeding soley for a pet market..However a pet breeder might be something you have no problem with) .

- One that fully health tests their dogs.

- One that doesnt have more than two (at the very most) litters a year.

- One that can guide you in any area with your pup, always offering you support and advice, taking dog back if needs be and just generally being there to call upon.

- One that will question you, and answer your questions - openly invite you into their home to meet a few times with breeder and fur family.

- One that has a good understanding of their breed and own dogs, can offer you lots of advice..Give you good and bad points.

- One that does KC register their puppies, DNA profiling would be an added bonus - being members of breed clubs is also something to look for, but not the bee all and end all.

There are aload more things but my minds gone blank..as long as you feel you have brought a well cared for pup from a loving home, where (in your eyes) the right ethics have been followed then you cant go wrong.
There will aways be people in breeds that frown upon some breeders for X and Y reasons, this doesnt make the breeder bad, if you feel they have been up most responsible in caring and raising their dogs.
Once you have found a breeder you like the sound of, just contact and chat with them - you get a feeling for people.
Also typing in the breeders name/affix can bring a whole load of stuff up on the internet..something that can sometimes make good reading.

I am not sure if their is a breed related forum - but that might also be somewhere to go for a wee bit more advice?

Thanks DD for the reply. The bit about websites and advertising litters is because the gist of what I was told was in this breed they should not need to advertise. ( Not the ads sites). That I know is definately not a place to go.

Hence my confusion too if like me first time around you do not know this how do you know differently. I'm not entirely sure this is something to take as seriously as I felt it was intended, but I will err on the side of caution and go with the advice given. Given my previous experience.

Like everyithing you do your best and hope it all turns out well. But most things are lottery at the end of the day and they did admit even the really good breeders have at some point had the odd dog taken off their legs at a young age for no apparent reason.

have you contacted the breed club(s)?

This is the FIRST place any potential purchaser should go in search for any breed puppy. Members have to abide by their codes of ethics/conduct and the secretary can advise you, generally speaking they are not biased.

Pupppies, like children, do not come with any guarantees. If you feel that the BMD is the ONLY dog for you, then all you can do is the best you can. HAve you been to many shows, talked to exhibitors, looked on line at Higham Press and Fosse Data to see what affixes are the most successful?

Been to any carting exhibitions?

Thank you for the reply and the suggestion of the Higham press and Fosse data shall take a look on there. We are intending to go to some carting exhibitions next month when they start and have a chat with some of the people and get to know some breeders.

Exactly you cannot guarantee anything.

Nothing much to add that hasn't already been said but just wanted to say that I live opposite Higham Press

Ha ha. Its quite informative.

Exactly you can only do your best, I wish you the best of luck - and hope you will keep us all updated on your journey!

Hi Lynn

Firstly, you mustn't blame yourself for what you've heard about Ollie's breeder, from what you say I would have thought you had researched really well. Also, in all breeds there is a certain amount of back-biting, so maybe also take what this other lady has said with a pinch of salt ;-)

Ollie was a darling boy and gave you so much pleasure, what happened to him could have probably happened to any dog, I'm sure.

I do know that Rachel has a friend with a Bernese, it may be worth pm'ing her to see if she could find out the breeders details etc., and whether she would recommend her. Word of mouth is very often a good way to find a good breeder.

I haven't got any shows booked other than English Setter ones for the forthcoming weeks, but as soon as I go to an all breed one, if there are any Bernese there I will see if I can ask about them. I have a few catalogues from recent shows that will have owners details in them, I'm more than happy to post them if you wanted to phone the exhibitors and ask questions. I'm sure they wouldn't mind, I get loads of calls every week asking if I have any pups, if I can recommend breeders and generally asking advice. I think most people that love a breed so much are always willing to help others.

I am an Accredited Breeder, and I do things by the book, but I do know of others in my breed and other breeds that don't do what they should be doing so you are correct to assume that it doesn't necessarily safeguard you.

If only you were after an English Setter I would be able to help you immediately xx

Thanks Sheree.

It is a minefield it was hard enough when looking for our first Bernese (Ollie) it is even harder now. I think there are so many now going into rescue more than they would like through bad breeding that she is understandably very passionate about it. Rightly so of course. You can find them on the free ad sites now some KC registered some not all varying prices and some with hip and elbow scores and some not. Also various cross breeds. Of course those I would definately not give our money too and encourage them to keep breeding.

Of course there are good and bad in all and I am sure most of the breeders on the Accredited scheme do it by the book but I suppose you will get the odd ones in all breeds who don't its the finding out who do it right that is the problem. But like you say even the recommended breeders sometimes have problems.

SB summed it up very well nothing is guaranteed and I agree with that 100% and will not lay the blame for Ollies problems directly at his breeders door she has some lovely dogs and some into their teens so she must of been doing something right.

Ollie was destined to be ours I feel very strongly about that. Fate if you like he was going to need us and he got us and although we have and me mostly have had my heart broken it was worth every second he has taught us a lot so when we get our new Bernese baby we are even better prepared.

Thank you for the offer of the show magazines they would be good to look through and make some enquiries I will pay the postage. Also the offer of if you see any Bernese people at shows asking around for me. We will be attending the carting show at Northampton in May to get to meet some people and get a feel for some different types.

I certainly feel more positive today about putting my best foot forward and finding our new addition.

Hi Lynn, sorry only just skipped through this thread coz I'm in a hurry atm, but there is a very reputable breeder in my village (Findon), and a lady with one who is hiring my van shortly, told me via e-mail that the dog she recently lost actually came from this breeder, and the dog was 11 years old and from what you have said in the past, I consider this to be quite a considerable age for these dogs? They have been on her waiting list ever since losing that dog, and only recently (a month ago), she was contacted to say she could have another puppy.

I don't know this woman (breeder) personally, but I've seen her dogs being walked, I know she shows all around the country (coz I bought her car off her many years ago), so I've met them, I've been up to the kennels, and can only say they seem to be very knowledgeable and pleasant people to deal with, but I was only buying the car lol!

I think her mother used to breed them, but now the daughter and her husband have taken over. Shall I get the contact details and pm you, or if you like, I'm sure the lady who is renting my van would be more than willing to converse with you via e-mail or phone if I contact her?

Let me know Lynn and I'll do all I can to help you get in touch with them. You can try Google for breeders in Findon/Worthing and see if it comes up? They are situated in Long Furlong, Findon ok. Good luck.

Thank you Helena that is what I'm looking for too personal recommendation.

If you could pm me I would be very greatful. I will google too and then I must do some housework.

I am wondering if this is the lady who some people round the corner to me have one their two bitches from ?

Just googled it and it is one of the breeders who I thought it was a lady round the corner from me has 3 Bernese and one of her bitches came from this breeder. Just had a quick look she does have pics up of her Bernese but does not advertise litters you have to contact so thats the way I want to go. May have to go on a waiting list will give her a call and have a chat.

No word of mouth, tests etc are a guarantee - look into any other health tests that may not be mentioned in the KC side of things but are relevant in the breed, start looking into pedigrees etc, how they are socialised... but also, don't ingore your own intuition either.

I was talking to someone about a breeder and they had nothing but good things to say about them yet another person was the complete opposite and was really negative .
Who do you believe ??Most definitely a mine field ..
Good luck

Shall I e-mail the lady who has just got her puppy from them (who also had the 11 yr old) and ask her if she wouldn't mind me giving you her e-mail address then? Nothing better than first hand experience of these pups like she has, and I do know she waited aaages for this new puppy because she had been so very happy with the previous dog. Pm me your e-mail addy Lynn and let me know if you'd like me to contact this owner, she's a very nice lady, she even sent me pics lol!

The only health tests for Bernese at the moment is hip and elbow scores. Some are temperament tested and have passed the temperamnet assessment but only one breeder so far that I can see has done this I would have to enquire of some that I have in mind whether thay have this award or not.

This is what is worrying me I thought my intuition was right last time when I met both of Ollies parents and his aunts and grandmother etc., He unfortunately did not have the temperamnet of any of these he was showing signs of fear aggression once removed from the litter and any amount of socialisation made it worse. He was only ever confident with the family and certain people we use to walk with, I do wonder if his mum falling down a hole 10 days before whelping had affected him at all. I did enquire as to whether breeder knew of any of his siblings had the same issues I never got a reply re: that enquiry.

I have just phoned the lady round the corner from me who has a bitch from the breeder Helena is mentioning I have left a message asking if I can go and meet her Bernese sometime she did make the offer yesterday that I could go round and visit so I will take her up on the offer.

Big ? Murf. I suppose at the end of the day you have to make the decison on your own with some help along the way but like everything else in life you can take advice and think it is sound advice it may not be it is a risk we take. The ultimate decision has to be your own and you have to be responsible for the decison you make and hope you get it right.

Hiya Lynn, can't offer any advice re: berneses but just to say don't beat yourself up about Ollie's breeder, I've been in a similar situation and you can only live and learn. We found a health testing breeder, met all the family, fantastic temperements but later, down the line, found out there were things we definitely weren't shown which may explain his dog aggression which was present from a pup. You can only try your best and it's not worth beating youself up about it because you did what you thought was best at the time, as I did. We would never purposely not do the best for our dogs. Best of luck with your breeder search

Hope it all goes well