Border Collies - a general discussion Discussions

So we don't totally take over the "keep your dog on a lead" thread ...

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=143986&page=5 ...

I will open discussion about all aspects of the Border Collie here instead Feel free to add anything to the discussion, as I am not even really sure which direction the thread will go.

Just to reiterate what was being said on the other thread. Why is it that so many border collies seem to end up in unsuitable homes and with behavioural problems?

Personally I feel that the original TV series One Man & His Dog may have initially opened the door for people to consider border collies as pets (although there was most likely collies in pet homes prior to that too). Then with the huge growth of the sports that collies excel at - ie flyball, agility, obedience, HTM etc, it seems the pet border collie has become almost as common in towns and cities as on farms and smallholdings in the countryside.

Undoubtedly, some collies make good pets and some homes can provide enough outlets for a busy collie to be fulfilled and lead a happy life. However, there are also as many (if not more, looking at the rescue situation) collies living very unfulfilled and frustrated lives in a pet home and probably making their owners lives a misery in the process.

Unfortunately I don't have a solution - other than to try and educate people not to buy working collies as pets - but how difficult is that, when there are "cheap" litters of working collie pups advertised every week? People who really do want a collie as a pet could be encouraged to look at slightly older dogs in BC rescue, who have been assessed as suitable to a pet lifestyle possibly, but unfortunately I don't see this problem going away any time soon.

Farmers need to be educated as well, not to sell pups into pet homes, but I think a few factors are at play here. Farmers are generally less judgemental than some dog breeders and will take in good faith that whoever comes to buy their pups will give it the best life possible. However, there is also the side where some don't care where the excess of the litter goes and many more who just want the extra cash generated, without a thought to the life the dog may eventually lead. Again, an uphill struggle.

What are others views on collies in pet homes and also the amount of collies that end up in rescue every year.

I think the main problem is that collies are cited as being extremely intelligent, which means that people assume they come ready trained. They are also MASSIVELY over bred. You just need to look at a well known puppy site to see that, pages and pages of the poor wee mites. So, it's easy access and people assuming 'intelligent' means easy...they are also a good looking, nicely sized dog which appeals to a lot of people.

To top all of that, there are soooooooooo many different groups in collies...puppy farmed,working,agility,obedience,show etc, all different groups all breeding for their own ends and needing to sell the surplus stock.
Vicitms of their own popularity.

As you know we have always had collies in the past, my oH has had them all of his life. We decided against having another one (mainly due to the fact I have fallen for another ) but also because I felt sourcing the right puppy for us would be too, too hard. In the future we would possibly rehome one from rescue. Don't know.

As for collies in pet homes, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Depends on the dog and owner really. I don't think their appeal to the pet home has created the problem, they are sadly vicitms of their own success and good press...

Just my ramblings, still early though!

Think this also applies to working bred Beardies too

Collies come with built in 'instincts' which are often not compatible with pet homes. Chasing and nipping.

Add to that the fact that many people will buy from a farm because it is cheap and then not go to classes because it costs money, then are told by vets that the dog must stay in until a week after the last injection.

You have a pup who has seen very little and has not got anything to tire it mentally and owners who think they have loads of time and in reality have a window of 3/4 weeks if they are lucky.

If they miss that window they can end up with huge problems.

rune

I'll add springers to the list----their instincts are different but can be just as lethal.

rune

Basically as usual its down to poor education.

When I was doing a meet and greet at PAH I had a woman come up to me and ask if she should get a training book or a breed specific for a pup she was going to collect the next week. I asked her what breed and she said border collie. I asked where she was getting the pup from and had she done any research at all. She was getting it from a farm and no had not done anything but she liked the look of them, at this point i went through as much as the breed i could think of with her and advised her to do as much research as possible before collecting the pup. I felt sorry for her in that she looked totally petrified and hadnt heard of any of the behaviours I told her about, she had only seen the well trained dogs on the tv. I reassured her that they are absolutely fantastic dogs they just require constant stimulation and advised her of games and roles the dog can have in a home environment and the importance of training. For once I felt like someone actually listened and I may have hopefully potentially helped her understanding of her soon to be pup.

I think any dog can be addded to this list. People get dogs without any idea of what they are bred to do, their behaviours, how they think all the time and as we know it can all go so wrong, usually the dog getting the brunt of it

Yes I think it is v sad

Several factors I think

1st - lazy people, dont research breeds and dont expect to have to work with a dog - they just assume all breeds should just fit into their lives
2nd - A big assumption that all collies have the 'desire to please' and are 'easy to train'
3rd - people who assume the dogs need many hours of exercise but never bother with any mental exercise - you then have super fit bored dogs who obsesvily chuck balls in your lap all day


tbh (and I know people will disagree) I also think breeding for hobbies is partly to blame too - people may have got to know a few collies and think they can cope with one but dont realise what a high drive working line is really like

and some of the 'sports' breeders are breeding dogs with no off switch, never able to settle and chill

imo a good working line dog CAN make a great pet dog - IF the owners realise what they are getting and are willing to adapt their lives, to give the dogs a job and a fufilling life

From personal experience, its sad how many people buy them from whatever outlet I hasten to add, and think that they are smart dogs and will pick up training as 'quick as a flash':-(
Lazy owners & fair weather owners contribute to thier lack of training/responsible ownership/socialisation, BC's left in the garden, or in the kitchen all day, only heighten thier boredom, many people buying them not thinking that a BC is NOT a couch potatoe.
Lunging, nipping, spinning, circling, eyeing, stalking, all come with the ''OH I can not stop that sorry....its a BC afterall'' why people feel that owning a BC means all these things is beyond me.
A breed that pick up bad habits as quick a good ones, but owners feeling that the bad habit can not be re-trained, all because of the breed they are.
Yes I agree that bad habits are a nightmare, and its all time consumming to stop them, but it can be redirected and BC's are good at picking up re-direction.
We came back from a walk the other week and met a chap with 4, one being deaf and completely out of control on a long lead being handled by a equally silly boy of 11'sh, and another that was spinning all the time, in conversation the chap told me that the deaf one can not be taught anything ''because its deaf'' and the one spinning has got a ''bad habit which can not be stopped'' and to make matters worse the other two old ones were just left to do thier own thing, so it wasn't of any surprise when one of his lunged at one of mine:? and he laughed about it telling me ''well you should know what these BC's are like''!!!!!
Makes me angry when they end up with owners that do not/can not train them, equally annoying when the excuse that the ''parents were workers'' is used, then my answer is....well find your BC a job to do

Thanks for your reply Ailsa. To pick up on a few points - who would appear to be the majority advertising on the "well known puppy site" - is it byb and puppy farmers, regular farmers, pet owners, sport breeders?? I tend not to look at sites like that as I would just get depressed!

I agree that there seems to be the myth that BCs are easily trained due to being one of the more intelligent breeds.

It is sad that there are so many factions breeding collies as you have stated. Not sure what the answer to that one is though :-(

I am fairly confident I would never have a collie purely as a pet, but my current collie (and any future collies) will be dual purpose - pet AND work

Yes you are probably right. The difference though is that working beardies are few and far between in working homes as well as pet (in my experience anyway, but please correct me if I am wrong) compared to the 1000s of border collies. I know that doesn't make it any better for the beardies who are in unsuitable pet homes though :-(

I think it's a mixture to be honest (on that site), I don't look that much I am just aware there are pages and pages and pages. I only pop on to check out the FCR bit to see if anyone is trying to sell on an older dog, so it can be helped.I've only looked at collies on there a couple of times and was really upset by it.

No, not sure what the answer is....

Any collie we have now would be a rescue I think.

just to add. Its not just the farmers "working dogs" that will be bred from , but sometimes they will breed from a failed worker, to make some money out of her because she dosent work. Sometimes double merle to make pretty puppies that sell.
Nice easy side line that makes some money.
This i find FAR worse the the farmer breeding & try to breed his next working dog& selling the excess

I did wonder if at least a majority of the people who choose to buy a working collie from a farm do so simply because they are a fraction of the price of a pedigree pup :? Not to say that if pedigrees were also, on average, £150 a pup that people still wouldn't choose to buy a pup from a farm.

I have a friend who has had two border collies in her life. The first pup was bought from a farm as an 8 week old pup. He spent 8 years of his life with her and, to be frank, it was about as far from an ideal home as you could imagine! She lived in a one bedroom, top floor flat in a block of five, no garden and she worked full time. Even though she lived fairly close to work she decided not to come home at lunchtime, so this active dog was left for around 10 hours a day on his own in a one bed flat. His exercise mainly consisted of chasing stones on the beach - and he, unsurprisingly, became obsessed with stones. He also ripped her flat apart (also unsurprisingly) and started to show real signs of distress and anxiety, by barking, howling and soiling her bed and other areas of the flat. Poor dog. I recall her once considering getting a crate so she could crate him while she was at work, so he couldn't wreck anything Eventually (and it took years!) I persuaded her that he was a very, very unhappy dog and that she couldn't provide any of the things he needed and she gave him up for rehoming. None of the collie rescues could take him (as they all had long waiting lists) and so he went into the local rescue centre. I did try to home him with me, but he hated my current GSD bitch and tried to do her serious damage. Thankfully he eventually found a good home, with a committed and experienced couple. However, it breaks my heart that this dog had 8 wasted years of life.

Then a good few years later she decided she wanted another dog ... and, you guessed it, she bought another border collie pup from a guy who was retired from farming but who bred working collies for sheepdog trials. This wee bitch was VERY worky, you could see it just by looking at her. Thankfully this time she took advice and listened to more experienced collie owners and tried to provide a more stimulating environment and lifestyle for her dog. Unfortunately though, the good intentions didn't last. My friend moved away, lived on her own in a rural village with her teenage son, but then travelled an hour each way to work and so the dog was again left all day alone, this time in a kennel. Unforgiveable enough, but we nearly had some very serious fallings out when she admitted the dog didn't always get taken out for exercise before or after work as she was too tired :-( I can understand that, having lived on my own and travelled for work etc ... however, I always, always exercised my dogs - no matter how knackered I felt! After all, I had chosen to have a dog - so it was my responsibility! I obviously didn't appreciate that not everyone feels the way I do. When I met my now hubby, he was quite keen to try my friend's little bitch on sheep as she was very worky and had a good working pedigree too. He offered to buy the bitch for work if she turned out ok. My friend said no. What a shame.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on. We are still friends and thankfully now my friend has married and her hubby works from home and the dog gets much more in the way of exercise and stimulation.

I just wonder how many thousands of other collies lead a similar life.

I don't know a massive amount about springers, but know how active they are so am sure there are plenty of that breed in the wrong homes too. What sort of inherent instincts do springers have that are difficult to manage in a pet home ... other than boundless energy and enthusiasm of course ;-)

BCs can be hard work and most of the time very miss understood - people give up to easy or dont put the work in from the very start. Dogs get 'pushed' out..Bored and frustrated and problems just get worse, owners get to boiling point and the 'dog has to go'.

With the amount of puppies around, and the amount in rescue - people will just sell to anyone, for any price..Passing on their problems or 'potential' problems onto others.

I have grown up with BCs all rescues bar one..Although I am far from an expert I feel I understand their needs, or I would never have got Mace. Mace does have a few issues, due to the breeder/home he came from - but we are working with them..Its taking abit longer than it should but we will get there, we shall keep at it and wont give up.

Border Collies are intelligent, not only do they remember the good stuff you have taught them and expect them to remember..They will remember the bad...I think that it can sometimes be hard to get bad habits out, more so than I 'personally' have found with my others.

I am told Mace is a mixture of working and show lines, but flipping heck does he want to chase everything - find anything ... His recall was getting there, but he is going through a stubborn stage at the moment.

He had his first swim today and he loved it, also met a wee JRT who he loved, and two cockers one was abit nervous and snapped at Mace..Mace took it all in his stride and laid down to be sniffed and 'checked out' - I now have one mucky pup, whos been on a nice long walk and is sleeping now

Well done for helping the lady who is getting the collie pup, and I hope she takes some of it on board.

Even though I agree that any dog could be added to this list, ie people getting dogs with little thought or research, I do believe that collies suffer more than most. Border collies are still bred along strong working lines in this country (and have been for generations) and anyone who has seen a collie working sheep on a regular basis will realise that many of these dogs do not (and perhaps even should not?) fit into pet homes. Even with all the research, experience, training, socialisation, stimulation and the best will in the world, some of these dogs will never make pets.

True. Its a shame some people cant put two and two together.

I don't disagree with you. Nobody has the right to tell another person whether they can or cannot breed, or what they should or shouldn't breed, yet a well bred working collie would be more than capable of fulfilling the criteria for any hobby activity. However, part of me feels that if working people continue to breed their own collies as they have for generations and leave the hobby people to breed their sort of collies for sports activities and then try to encourage pet people to buy show bred collies, then eventually the working dog may be seen less in unsuitable homes. Well ... that would be a good outcome anyway :?

I agree with your final paragraph in the main, yet have also met collies so hard-wired for work, that work is all they want to do and think about, and that even in a previously experienced collie home, with plenty of activity and stimulation of the non-sheep kind, this type of dog would be a frustrated and unhappy sort of dog.

I agree Steph. It is so maddening when the wider public seem to believe that nipping, spinning, circling, stalking etc are all normal collie traits that can't be modified and so just put it down to the breed and do nothing about it.

surely its the OWNERS that teach dogs to switch off/settle? You cant blame the breeding for that!

One of THE first things i teach mine, is when you arent "doing", you chill out!when im not interacting with me you do your own thing/chill out