Ethical cross breeding??????????????? Controversial

So whats the diff between an unethical breeder and a puppy farm?

Adam

To me..Nothing.. Just a PFer will be on a bigger scale..Both have the same standards (or lack of) and both have the same aim...Some unethical can be cluess...Due to lack of research...But the main thing that ties them as one in the same to me...Dogs suffer because of them.

But that said there are also some KC registered breeders, bred from "good" breeders in breeds that require no compulsary health testing, no specific tests available, etc. Not that I agree with indiscriminate breeding, just felt it was a reasonable point to make.
Crossbreeding will always be sensitive, I have an xbred from a breeder who health screened in regards to each parent breed, someone I classed as a good caring breeder regardless of what some may think of those who choose to xbreed, this wasnt for monetary gain. I think ANY dog whether pedigree, xbreed, or alien, needs to bred carefully and ethically and imo just because a dog is purebred, or with papers etc, imo doesn't make a difference at all as there's many unethically bred versions of these out there. Pedigree, Xbred, Registered, Unregistered, Pink with green spots, isn't what is important, health screening, sound temperaments of breeding stock, support from the breeder, correct breeding motivations, support, the breed/particular x being right for you, the right dog from the right background in the right circumstances is what counts.

To be clear, I have no issue with cross breeding.

I simply feel that ANY and ALL breeders should health test both parents thoroughly.

I know there are good and bad breeders in all groups - KC, private breeders, etc.


Sadly as long as people are happy to buy from these unethical people, these people will carry on breeding. Simple as that.

Here's the difference:


Unethical breeder: may only have a litter every now and then, but whenever they do, will neglect the health tests of the parents.


Puppy farm: people who keep dogs and mate them regularly, too often, and often keep these dogs in terrible conditions. Puppy farms churn out puppies, often of lots of different breeds.


In both cases, the puppies may suffer really serious health problems at some point that could have been prevented if the parents were screened.

Ok, firstly, your dog came from an unethical breeder who did not health test. You can use the arguement that he was already born, but you still put money in the breeders hand... and if everyone stopped buying from such people, they would then have to health test or else not sell the pups! So, i dont agree with that arguement at all.

Secondly, i do not agree with crossbreeding for no real purpose. And, that isnt anything against crossbreeds... i love crosses and i own one (and i owned the same cross as you do when i was growing up). The rescues are full of dogs that there are simply not enough homes for. IMO, dogs should only be being bred for extremely good reasons, and i wish tight laws would be put in place to stop the overbreeding. I dont agree with crossbreeding, i also dont agree with sticking two of the same pedigree together willy nilly with no thought of what kind of example of the breed they are. Some people breed crosses to achieve something, and i have no problem with that provided they have put a lot of thought into what they are doing and have it planned.

My ideas of a responsible breeder is strict, so i disagree with a lot of matings.

Hmm Where do I start

1.Price-Don't know how much you paid & don't want to know-however if the breeder has the dog & bitch & they have a litter every season & have say 8 puppies a time & charge £150 each-they will still make money as there are no health tests, registration fees etc to pay

2.How do you know your puppy & it's parents are "healthy"(as in 100%)the parents could have HD/CEA/ED & you can never know unless they have been tested, so your puppy could well have HD/ED/PRA etc etc Collies & Labradors also have a high incidence of epilepsy(along with Standard Poodles)so if the parents live outdoors they could have epilepsy or be carrying it & again your puppy could inherit it

3.Breeding without any health testing is not responsible regardless of whether the dogs are pedigree, registered etc so the Breeder is not being responsible

4.It isn't snobbery it isn't prejudice it is concern for the "offspring's"welfare & future.

5.The origin of the dog is of course a personal decision

6.One person alone cannot make much of a difference but there is the saying"save one life & you save the world"

7. I have no problem with breeding crossbreeds, I do have a problem with people breeding without health testing & giving the offspring a silly name. I have sadly never met a pet/BYB/occasional/puppy farmer breeder who has health tested their dogs befor breeding from their dogs. I do know people who do breed crossbreeds for a purpose from health tested parents & who do not call them silly names. I have no problem whatsoever with this, but they are few & far between,

If you have never seen a dog with severe HD/ED or epilepsy, PRA or CEA then you are lucky & I hope your puppy does not inherit any genetic condition from it's parents

No farmer I know breeds X breeds deliberately

All puppy farmers are unethical breeders, but not all unethical breeders are puppy farmers QED

This is what I was told, not stupid enough to believe everything I beleive but the dogs were all healthy looking and had good temperaments so couldn't see a problem.
Going slightly off the subject arn't we?

I saw the parents and 4 other dogs on the farm, and chose from 4 puppies.

I wouldve had a rescue dog, my family has re homed 6 in the past, but i have young children and they wont allow me to have one. Wanted a dog that would grow up with us and that we could train ourselves.

So health testing is the real issue?
That's fair enough, I'll admit I was naeive, but at the same time I you just wouldn't assume that 2 working dogs would have health probelms, or the potential to get them.
People mate thier dogs in a home environment all the time, there are millions of adds for puppies out there, I don't think one person or a few people can make a difference.
Especially when legitimate breeders are charging so much for pedigree puppies. Poeple just think about money now days, it's unfortunate but true.

Not really, as your thread is on "ethical breeding " and considering the amount of times you contradict yourself , it hardly surprising others are a little baffled by your supposably experience , research , and the reason you bought this type of cross,why he bred them , yet with each post you put up, the inconsistencies get wider and wider.

Why not?? HD is often masked my muscle tone!


I purchased my pure BC from health tested parents, for £400 - people charge about £750 for Poodle x's......

...I have also purchased from a Puppy farm (all be it one that health tests). It was not intentional, and I will do my hardest NOT to put myself in that situation again - my heart nearly always rules my head.
But I would certainly hope that people can make a difference - looking at this thread, I would hope that the next time you purchase a dog you would ask about health testing first? Which means that at least you now know, and possibly if anyone asked you about your dog, you would be able to say, 'well....Collies and Labs are prone to HD, so make sure parents have been hipscored...etc etc...'

So yes - I think one person can make a difference.

Er, hello.....?

Just because people do something 'all the time' does NOT make it all right!!!

People steal all the time in shops - does that mean if you also do it, well hey that's fine, because what difference does one more make????


And the puppies that result from those home matings - well, it sure as hell makes a difference to THEM when they go blind heaven forfend by the age of TWO, all because their 'breeder' didn't do the requisite health tests!!!


Your attitude is appalling - I've tried to be polite and give you the benefit of the doubt but the basic attitude on your part is clearly 'Never mind, other people do it, why shouldn't I?'

As for this absurd argument you make about cost - nonsense. These designer crosses cost way more than a puppy that is one pure breed OR a rescue dog.

Oh, and rescues have puppies, by the way.

I hate these cross breeds they give stupid names to like labradoodle etc but, I would love a spinone/GWP cross.

I don't think anyone on here has a problem with cross breeds, a lot of members own cross breeds or have done in the past, and take great pleasure in showing us photos and telling us of their antics in exactly the same way as those of us with pedigrees do.

What you are failing to understand, or maybe don't want to understand is, by purchasing a pup from someone that hasn't health tested both parents prior to mating, you could have bought yourself a whole lot of heartache. I hope for Milos sake he will have a long and happy life with you, but how can you tell, with an untrained eye, whether either or both parents are epileptic, have HD, blindness or any other inherited problems that only show up from health testing? This is the point that people are trying to get across to you, the very fact that this chap is breeding his dogs, and being able to sell them to unwitting owners, you are lining his pockets and he will continue to breed whilst he can sell the pups. If people refused to buy them the litter may well end up in rescue, but he may think twice before he breeds again if he thinks he won't be able to get rid of the pups.

I also cannot agree with you leaving Milo alone whilst you work, yes we all have to go to work but when I wasn't working from home I paid someone to come in and check on my pup several times during the day...my panic was that he could vomit and choke on it, I would come home to a dead pup...also he needed to be let out for the toilet and to check his water and food bowls were ok. When said pup was old enough this same person would take him out for a couple of walks during the day and generally keep an eye on him, knowing they had permission to get him to the vet in need if they were at all worried about him, I have the luxury of working from home these days but, I made sure I cut out some of the luxuries to ensure my pup was taken care of when I wasn't. I would never sell a pup to someone that is out at work all day unless they could guarantee that there would be someone checking on it during the day.

I'm sure Milo is adorable and that you love him very much, but you have to face facts that maybe you didn't research as well as you thought you had, and maybe now wasn't the right time to have a dog if you don't have the time to commit to looking after him or can afford to have someone do it for you. I know you mention that you don't care if he trashes the house, but what if he bites through an electric cable or bites something that then lodges in his throat?

These are the things that us fellow dog lovers worry about, I don't think anyone really gives a flying fig that your boy is a crossbreed, it is the lack of breeder care and the fact that he is left alone all day that is worrying some of us. Just my opinion anyway.

I don't understand why living outdoors can affect whether a dog has epilepsy or not?

There is no test for epilepsy and unless the owner of a carrier or a dog with epilepsy reveals this, even if their dog isn't directly used for breeding, it could pass down a line unbeknown to the most ethical breeder.

SCORPIO - WELL SAID!!!!



To Gemma:

I know you don't like our responses but in fairness, you started this thread and we are simply being honest.