Pastoral breeds - working or show strain? Discussions

I had a long coat GSD from a well known successful GSD show breeder.He was from a litter bred for the ring but was sold as a pet due to his coat.He was a stunning dog with the highest work drive I have ever known.He was a natural at obedience and loved any kind of work.Unfortunately he came to me(as a rescue)when I had 4 young children and seperated from my OH shortly after he arrived too so I really never had the time to make the most of his ability.

Well all my GSDs have been of show stock & I have shown in breed all my life but I have also worked these same dogs in obedience,done some agility though not in competition & my big regret is that I never had a dog who worked sheep. Back inthe 70s there was a lady from Ireland who showed & owned several champions & all of them worked sheep on her farm in Ireland.One litter I bred I used a German import who had full herding qualifications so it is possible, its largely time constraint or lack of interest on the owners side I suspect. When I was younger we also as a family worked 2 of our bitches in working trails but it was time constraints on our part rather than the dogs ability that stopped us doing more.It does affect your training a little as I tend never to train a young puppy to sit on the lead at a halt except when at a kerb,this comes later, & by using different collars & commands all my dogs have understood the difference between show & obedience rings
I've never worked at the top level in obedience admittedly, A is the highest class I've worked but again thats more my interests than the dogs.
Sorry to go on so long but you originally did ask about shepherds & BCs & the magority of replies have been about BC/WS

Were they really ? I remember(yes I am that old)when the KC recognised the breed that they transferred all the BC's from the then WTAO register that were 1)ISDS reg, 2)from ISDS reg parents 3)from KC WTAO register parents that were either (1) or (2) or direct descendants from (3) There were loads of BCs that were quite far removed from the ISDS dogs

Of course now there are the foreign imports that are over 60 years removed from the ISDS dogs originated sent to NZ & Australia & the USA

Like all dogs pedigree is no guarantee that they will work, but from experience dogs from lines with a high work drive are more likely to be also high drive

As for GSDs, true working bred GSDs are not long coated but have correct coats & are more likely to resemble the International type GSD that the English"Alsatian"type. Whether they are bred to do sheep/cattle herding or Schutzhuind/protection a long coat is counter productive as few have a waterproof coat as the extra long guard hairs mean an open coat

My next BC will be from a mix of KC & ISDS lines(with some NZ blood but at least it will almost of the pedigree & with an strong ISDS line closer up)He is bred to work & the previous litter have certainly proved their bloodlines are a good mix. My next GSD will be a schutzhund working dog, probably a dark grey sable from Germany. Apart from one or two imported schutzhund dogs I wouldn't currently touch a UK bred GSD

Gwen Barrington bred my first GSD from two of her imports back in 1958 & she had GSDs back then that both worked sheep & to the gun(she had a large estate & had regular shoots over the season) She always had sheepworking GSDs from the first ones she imported not just in the 1970's Her Brittas GSD's were legend for ability & temperament, my bitch did breed & obedience to C

Sorry I should have said up to the 70's/80s.
How interesting that you had a Brittas dog. Did you ever see her working sheep? She showed us a cine-film once of the dogs working the sheep & she was on horseback, so I guessed her estate must be pretty big, I didn't know they worked to the gun, thats really interesting.

I must be the youngster in this bunch.....I didn't have my first Shepherd until 1975 she was half Brittas breeding.

There's some nice photos of herding in Nem & Percy Elliot's book The Complete Alsatian and one of Int Ch Vagabond of Brittas working with the gun.

I didn't have my bitch working to sheep, but I did see a good few of Mrs Barrington's. Ulrica was my favourite a lovely strong intelligent outgoing bitch in an era when the norm was long low soft backed dogs that had to be strung up & stacked in order to show. My prized possession is a Beswick model of her The colour is cr*p but the physical representation is spot on & no long dippy back & short legs for her. She had a lovely strong topline & long croup with as near perfect fore & hind angulation as is possible, her movement was to die for

Not my model & the colour is more grey than the colour in the photo Ch Ulrica of Brittas

Have to agree with you about her movement Free & easy & none of the scrabbling that sadly passes for movement too often today.I too have, & cherish, that model though mine is slightly darker than the one in the photograph I think. Must get it out of the cabinet & take a closer look later.
Will have to look for that photo of Vagabond, must have missed it, thanks for pointing that out.

Been thinking about this lately as I had a look at the border collies being shown at crufts.

They all seemed really small to me with more rounded heads/ faces and nothing like my dog at all, also the back legs looked strange as my aunt commented about the back legs of one dog it was then pulled out for 1st place:? sort of turning inwards at the hocks .

heres mine he's from working parents.

It's interesting as the breed in the ring is getting bigger. The standard says males 21 inches and bitches slightly less.
Now my boy bless him is bang on 21 inches to the shoulder, yet is one of the smaller dogs in the ring.
The more rounded head is in the main the New Zealand influence and breeding behind it. Again to the breed standard (KC)
In terms of hocks turning in. Unless this is the puppy class where they can be lazy with their back legs. This would be a fault. They should be straight and parallel looking from the back. Bear in mind as well in the show ring, the back feathers are trimmed or removed supposedly to give better idea of angulation etc, however bad hocks are bad hocks.

It may have been the puppy class although they all had quite alot of coat,
Maybe mine seems bigger to me cos he's larger than life and full of beans at 7 mnths he's approx 20 inches to his shoulder.
I will definatley look at them again if I go to an open show.

He's lovely. Is he ISDS registered? If so, do you know how he was bred?