Pastoral breeds - working or show strain? Discussions

My preference is for a working strain of dog - I don't show.

My GSD comes from a line of obedience dogs (with a few police/working trials dogs in her pedigree). She is longcoat, so would be frowned upon by show folk anyhow. I wanted her first and foremost as a companion, and to dabble in obedience, working trials and agility with. We do take part in obedience and agility (but not to competition level) but never got the chance to really do trials.

My collie is ISDS registered (not KC). He came from working parents and was bred by a farmer, who also trials very successfully and writes on the subject. I have started to train my dog on sheep, and also do some obedience. He is only 9 months at the moment, but will probably do some agility/flyball with him when he is older, for a bit of fun.

I would definitely never buy a show stock GSD because my preference is for a longcoat.

I would probably not buy from collie show stock but may look at lines that are bred from obedience/agility dogs. Having said this, the show collies are really glamourous and flashy, which I like - but have been told they may be lacking in the brain department. Can anyone with a show collie dispute that?

Its a generalisation that is commonly propagated. When the breed was recognised the first show collies were all ISDS collies and the breed has been developed from them so why would they not retain some of the working instincts they had then? Quiet a number of the handlers came from obedience and other discipines to the show ring and they still retain an interest in sheepdog trials, obedience, working trials and all the other events BC's take part in. Meet up with a BC from show lines out of the ring on the loose circling and working its people and you would see that they still retain the basic collie instincts which is why they need just as much training and stimulation as any other collie.
I have both farm bred and KC registered (I presume thats what you mean by show bred) and they are equally bright and rewarding.
I love them all

Thanks for your reply Gill, it is nice to hear what KC collies are like from someone who really knows As I have said, I really like the big coated, flashy looking collies you see in the show ring and if I can find one which also has working ability then I would be more than happy to have a pup from that breeder in the future.

Thanks for your comments.

Not entirely correct Some of the first show BC's were ISDS collies & lots of others were bred from ISDS dogs by non ISDS members & were therefore not eligible for ISDS registration, but were bred for Obedience/WT

The dogs all come from ISDS dogs(of course)even the Australian/NZ dogs-but the ISDS dogs these came from were exported in the 1920's pre eye testing days & of course their gene pool was quite concentrated & in fact included some Kelpie blood(a fact the Australian/NZ fans tend to forget/ignore)

The KC dogs pre show acceptance did not need to be eye tested to be registered(compulsory of course for over 20 years for ISDS dogs)& dogs/bitches are not precluded from having their subsequent puppies registered with the KC if the produce affected off spring.(again failure producers were effectively removed from the gene pool in ISDS dogs)The DNA CEA test of course has changed thing alot but there is a very well known carrier from the KC dogs who was used at stud pre DNA testing & he was used a lot !

There are lots of "typy"ISDS dogs(Ben 220939 for one)tue they don't have the very heavy bone & massive coats of the show dogs, but they can be flashy in looks & are bred to work

LOL I have been around ISDS dogs for a very long time & my Multi Sheep Trial winning dog was also a Ch Show Breed winner(although one of the judges told his steward he could tell my boy was by their Aussie Import which of course he wasn't)My current puppy is the total opposite to the fashionable show dogs Smooth coated & lighter boned but a bl**dy good worker(stock)his obedience skills are still being learnt !

Ok so they didnt all come down from ISDS stock then???? LOL of course they did. I made the mistake of over simplyfying it. Eye tests have nothing to do with the question really but that has now been sorted with the DNA tests or should have been. I know you prefer ISDS registered Dyane but even you would say that it's a generalisation that KC reg dogs have no brain, Blue is a prime example that that just isn't true.
Iwasnt saying one was better than the other they aren't its just personal choice ;-)
The only Full Champion in the breed in this country was Dual registered

Thanks for your input Joedee - I am fairly new to collies, so still learning.

I do love Derek Scrimgeour's Ben. I also very much like the look of Michael Longton's Monty (257223) but they had no pups when I was looking. Thomas Longton's Tweed was a fabulously glam looking dog and my own pup has lines back to Longton's Supreme Champion Bess. I have seen loads of really great looking dogs on the trials field too so wasn't saying there weren't some gorgeous looking ISDS dogs. I just suppose that KC reg are more like a "blue print", so you know what you are getting looks wise? So was just interested to know what they were like work wise.

Are there many dual bred collies?

Would love to see some pics of your ISDS dogs Joedee, past and present.

Cheers.

Which dog was that please Willowish, so I can have a look on the net.

I didn't intend this topic to debate whether one type was better than the other, so hope it doesn't!

Hi it was Ch Locheil Look North

I must get my Glen dog's photos scanned onto to CD He was around long before digital camera's sadly.

LOL I had to laugh when a certain Ch Sh judge had him 3rd in the line up for Best Dog & came to me afterwards & told me if he had moved with his head up he would have had Best Dog & that he was one of the best son's of a certain NZ import he had ever seen ! Glen was of course pure ISDS breeding & line bred to Bosworth Coon, he never moved with his head up in the ring as he had way too much work drive. The NZ champion had the Australian BC/Kelpie bloodlines.

I didn't realise my puppy has some Longton(TW)lines behind him & Dryden Joe(the same as my Giff dog)

Have you looked at the Anadune website You can join for free & there are l,000s of dogs pedigrees & they will list your dog(s)as well I was surprised to find my three late boys on there I'm in the process of getting their full pedigrees etc on there.

The first dog I sent to Germany in on there German Ch, German Sieger, European Ch etc Tansterne Fun Sch H III, IPO Not bad for a £25 dog ! I'll also be sending them a photo & funn titles for him. His details are on Petra's(his owner)site under dogs

I agree Anadune is a wonderful site to kill time on researching pedigrees. Dyane totally O/T are you at LKA on Friday?

Yep If the Cavaliers are there on Friday I'll be lurking near the cavalier dog ring

I don't think I will be showing Rjj unless there's a smooth class-he's got to have his rear dew claws off as Roy didn't realise he had them !(only one to have them in the litter ) That will be my Xmas prezzie to him ! Then on 13th jan I'll be having the CEA/CL bloods done

Hmmm, I don't know if I can post here as my boy is neither a GSD or Border Collie, but hey.

Within Vallhunds we don't have different strains, instead we are mostly show, with alot of agility/obedience. Its really only in the Scandanavien countries that Valls still work stock. Oh sure, if the owner of the dog owns his own stock then he works the dog, but thats rare. The reason for this is because all (I know only one person who'll help train dogs of other herding breeds in Switzerland!) herding trainers will only work with Border Collies.

I've even called the herding association of Switzerland and was told as soon as I mentioned I had a Vall that I would only be accepted for training if I had a BC. The club of "outland herding breed herding association" told me (a touch politer) that unless I had a more traditional herding breed no one would take me. I somehow managed to find a woman who instructs in stockdog as well as sheep who said to me as long as he had the talent she'd take us!!! She even said that she's looking foreward to it as she's never seen a Vall work!

Gone off topic anyway in other breeds it depends. In the BC I prefer show lines that can work and in GSDs its working (schH) lines all the way, DDR line in particular.

That's a nice looking dog. Thanks for the links - will go and check them out. Which TW Longton dogs do you have in your dog's pedigree?

Cheers.

Thanks for your input and of course you can post here I was only talking about the GSD/BC because they are the breeds I own, but this thread is for all pastoral breeds.

I find it sad that you have struggled to find a trainer - you would think they would relish the challenge of another breed

My herding trainer here in the UK mainly works with BCs but does own a working Bearded Collie too and wanted to help me train my GSD to work sheep, as a challenge. He is renowned for his working with border collies, but does seem to like a challenge and encourages other pastoral breeds to come for training.

You will have to let us know how you get on with your lessons

Oh of course I'm rather pleased with her as she has 2 Aussie Shepherds and a Working Kelpie and she had a Working Oz Cattle Dog, all imported from the US, so she'll be used to the pushing/driving character instead of the lifting/gathering of the Collies

I don't know how it'll go, but at least we'll have tried.

And its not only other breeds, a woman in our club with a working line BC was told that she'll only be taken if herding is all she'll do with the dog. As she also wanted to work in obedience she's put the whole idea out of her head

Best of luck to you

My trainer was very encouraging about me taking my BC pup to obedience classes before bringing him to herding, he wanted me to teach him the basics and also thought it would help the dog to learn to respect me. I think there is a train of thought that says if you want to do well at any discipline then it is best you stick to one, rather than try to master a few, but I don't know how much truth is in that.

His mum Missie has Eng Nat Ch Gem 147666 behind her & his dad has Dryden Joe I must go & put his pediegree on the dog's site

If you look on Roy Goutte's site site you will see Chief who works sheep & obedience & has just started his obedience this year winning one novice so far

You do need solid obedience first if you want to do both obedience & trialling otherwise it can be confusing for the dog. I train a stop away from sheep & also the walk up(getting the dog to walk towards me from a stand(lol which in trialling is usually on the command lay down of course ! ;-) )

Roy has only seen sheep at his breeders but when he saw some heifers on a friends farm he faced them well & they turned from him which pleased me I won't be putting him round sheep until next autumn at the earliest maybe even later depending on how his obedience training is going

Speaking from the show side. I know of many of the dogs that are in the ring also work sheep outside the ring
My boy has shown aptitude for working sheep but I was told by many experienced people it would bring his working instinct out even more and it wasn't fair on the dog if I didn't have the facilities to work and train him on a regular basis. It's a shame but I fill his life with other things which keep his mind busy

Just to put a little twist on the herding thing. A friend of mine has a farm in Snowdonia and her two collies and two rottis herd the sheep. They picked up the inclination when they were pups and as one of the collies was aging and needed to ease up she thought she'd train the rotts to sheep. Lovely thing to watch. Next time i'm over there I must video it and pop it on here. Great to see these two breeds working together

That is interesting Megan, as since I have been training on sheep and going to lots of trials, I haven't once seen a dog competing that is a KC reg collie. Most farmers/shepherds/triallers wouldn't go near show lines at all.

I agree with what you were told about starting your dog on sheep. It is something that needs to be kept up and done on a regular basis. Shake the bottle, wake the drink as someone once said

It must be great to watch the Rotts working sheep, but they will have a completely different style to collies and obviously won't have the speed, eye and instinct ... they probably work similarly to the way my GSD did. Would love to see a video

Sorry for my ignorance (particularly as I actually own two BCs!) but can you tell by looks whether a BC is from show or working lines?
Having two rescue BCs with no background on them whatsoever, I presume that they are not from show lines, but can't know for certain (though without any paperwork, can't even be sure that they are 100% BC!).