It is like saying "I do not see sable GSD in the show ring" They exist, but some colours in all breeds are more popular in certain circles For example there are far more sables that WORK than black and tan GSD!
I did say "I'd" never seen a merle collie working sheep, and I was also told the same thing by Rex Smith, the shepherd who taught Aussies stockwork for the National Australian Shepherd Association; he has over 40 years experience in training sheepdogs for trialling and farm work and it was him who first pointed this out to me. Sorry if I offended anyone, it certainly wasnt my intention!
I doubt Rex has trained most sheepdogs in the UK though.......... most farmers and stockmen train their own!
I didnt say he had!! I was only giving a personal observation (I've never personally seen a merle BC working sheep and I've observed many as I live surrounded by sheep farms) and backed up by someone who'd be doing trials for years. The farmers round here sell any merle pups they have. I am certainly not criticising merles, I have 2 merle Aussies and have had merle BCs in the past! Love em
But in working collies colour is of little relevance to the shepherd - it is all about the best worker. The best working dogs being bred, irrelevant of colour or coat length etc etc. And why are there more sable (GSD) that work?
And many buy trained or part trained dogs, as they don't have the time or knowledge to successfully train their own ;-) It is a simple fact that in the UK there are many fewer working merles than black/white, or black/white/tan and even red/white.
Rex trains dogs for people just like that oh well sorry for quoting him. I'd better remember not to post anything like that again <<greenflydogz goes and sits on the naughty step>>
Of course the merles are in the minority, just as Livers and blues and whites are in the minority of GSDs. I do not have any vested interest in statements about BC and their colours other than I have seen several merles that actually work. And of COURSE some people go to others to train their sheepdogs, just as they do their gundog, but there are HUNDREDs that do not, so they will never crop up in statistics. The same observations you have made on BC apply equally to GSD, so I fail to see the relevance of your comments? I have no idea why there are more sables, bi colours and blacks that are successful in working rather than the B & T, there just are! Same as sables in show rings, there ARE champions in sables but FAR fewer than black and tans, why? Who knows. There is a difference in reporting FACTS v opinions; the former do not have any value judgements! Saying "You never (at least I've never) seen a merle BC working livestock, but you frequently see merle aussies working." Is neither a fact nor an opinon but a reflection of one person's experience. For example you will not FREQUENTLY see ASDs working at ALL in the UK!
I've apologised, said I meant no offence, told you who had told me, and advised that I should have said it was a personal observation. I fail to see what else I can do. I thought this was a friendly forum and entered the discussion on this basis. But as you keep telling me off despite my apologies, I will slink away and find somewhere else to go, like out for a walk with my beautiful dogs. See ya <<greenflydogz leaves the naughty step to take the dogs for a walk>>
Oh dear, don't forget your dummy on the way out........... Nobody has been unfriendly and there is no need to apologise for anything, a forum exists for debate, banter, news and views. I also cannot see where you have been "told off"? Dear oh dear...................
Yes but WHY are merles in the minority? Because, over the years, the other colours have been more successful in working stock and have therefore been kept and bred from. I don't have a vested interest either The point of my statement was because you said ... "I doubt Rex has trained most sheepdogs in the UK though.......... most farmers and stockmen train their own! " And I was just pointing out that there are plenty of shepherds and farmers who buy their dogs (where you said MOST train their own) ... you only need to go to a sheepdog auction to see how popular that choice is. When you say that there are more sables, bicolours and blacks (GSDs) working - do you mean actually working or in sports? I was thinking about this while exercising my dogs earlier and if we were looking at actual "working" dogs (ie dogs with a job) then I think you would find there are an equal amount of black/tan guide, SAR and police dogs. Also, in this country at least, sable seems to be a more predominant colour in certain working dogs just of late - whereas if you go back ten or more years many working GSDs were black/tan. I don't know if this were the case in Europe and the rest of the world though. Probably a bit OT now though ;-)
and thats why you get such lovely variation also b/w is the most common colour so unless you breed for colour there will always be more b/w's every litter and lots of the farmers I have met seem to have a preference for a dog that looked like their old dog or whatever - and some dont like a all white or light coloured head either (as they say the sheep challange the dog more) There is nothing more that you can do - dont worry about it - it was a fair observation but there are always exceptions MOST collies working sheep are b/w aussies tend to have been bred for colour more so you will get more flashy coloured ones Infact there have been reports in the past of people breeding collie litters and if the pups came out merle then they just docked the tail and sold them as aussies - so there is most likely a lot of mixing in the breeds From the ones I have experienced as well as the points everyone else pointed out aussies seem to have shorter necks and are a little less agile for fast turns and things but sadly some of the american show collies look more and more like aussies every year
To be honest, and in my experience only, tricolour (black, white and tan) is every bit as popular and common as black and white these days (although I still prefer a nice roughcoated black and white myself). Do merles crop up in regular litters, or do one of the parents have to be merle? I could have this completely wrong, but surely non-merle dogs made the better workers in the past and that is why they are still generally bred for work. Surely if merles had been the best workers way back when, we would see many more merles working sheep for a living? (I am certainly no genetic expert though ) I am sure there are still farmers/shepherds who have a preference for a dog that looked like their old dog (if it were a good worker) but I have never come across this when we have sold collie pups.
Don't worry about it Greenflydogz I have only ever seen video of merles who work sheep, and they were chosen for their colour as well as their working ability. None of the farmers or shepherds I have met have rated merles particularly highly. This could be because they have just never owned or worked a merle, or it could be other reasons.
but you sell to good people who know you are producing good workers One of the farms I was staying on one new year all the other guys stood round watching the new dog - a lanky funny looking tan tri he worked the sheep great but every guy there said they wouldnt take him cos they looked for 'a good worker and something you can look at' I guess everyone has preferences actually I love the look of a blue merle - but I havent met one I could live with yet - but that might be down to the fact that they are mostly coming from the same breeder up here
I just remembered as well people saying of other breeds that merles are crazy who knows if its true tho
Black is a dominant gene, so the dog could be BB or Bb to be black, the merle gene is a seperate gene, so a blue merle will be BB (or Bb) and Mm, it's called a lethal gene as 2 copies can cause deaf puppies, puppies born with deformed eyes, etc. To be red the dog needs 2 copies of the recessive gene, so bb. Dilute is a seperate gene, so if a dog is dd, then that will dilute the base coat, so, blue, lilac, slate. Tri, I believe is a recessive gene also. Then there's the e gene that 2 recessive copies gives the golden coat and sable, not sure how that works.
Lol yup I couldnt remember the letters or stuff black is dom over other colours - but merle isnt a colour its a pattern so a non merle to a merle will produce about 50% merle puppies Merle to merle will produce about 25% double merles 50% merle and 25% not merle
