Discussion split from NI and Utonagan owners thread Discussions

Extraordinary isn't it. I am not criticising sibes when I say they have a high prey drive - I know of at least 1 cat who paid the ultimate sacrifice to prove that point - yet they are such NICE dogs, I have never known a nasty sibe, or a mal for that matter, or indeed any northern type. They seem to have a built in sense of fair play that certainly the shepherd breeds don't have - sorry shepherd breed people, not knocking your lovely dogs at all, but just making an observation.

Both Ben and Tai HATE cats, so did Hal, it's in their genes, yet my daughter's cat is totally safe in the house - in the garden, she is fair game and they chase her relentlessly and put her up the fence, across the gate and on to the roof of the extension. And yet in the house, she hisses and spits at them when they are trying to be friendly, and they just turn away. Lovely dogs.

And with Gucci, they are amazing. If any dog attacks Gucci, or even growls at him, Ben and Tai pounce on them and give them a good talking to - no teeth, no harm done, they just roll and pin them down to teach them their manners.

An experiment eh?

Now, as a person with limitless curiosity, and a scientists mind, I'm not against experiments, imo we'd still be living in caves, if people weren't prepared to experiment, push the bounderies, take risks etc...also imo, it is the reason we have dogs in the first place, because some people saw the potential and decided to take a gamble on it.

With that said, in this day and age, I'd expect anyone wanting to conduct their own experiments, esp when refering to the creation of a new breed, to have extensive knowledge/understanding of genetics, anatomy, behaviour etc, etc. I'd expect it to be well planned, researched to within an inch of its life, with controls in place, contingencey plans for contingencey plans, and so on.

This was certainly not the case with the wolf lookalikes it seems, and given how much science had progressed even in the 80s, there wasn't and certainly isn't today, any excuse for it.

Sorry - you are just listening to the lies and rumours. You never met her, you did not know, you cannot say balderdash and poppycock when you have nothing to go on but other people's versions of the events ... including my own, come to that!!

let's turn this around, let's say that you believe and accept everything I say about Eddy as being the gospel truth - it is, but leave that aside for one moment. You know me well let's say, meet regularly etc. etc. You quote everything that I say as being the truth, being correct, but you don't KNOW for sure, because you never met Eddy, never saw her, her dogs, only photographs of just 1 or 2 of SOME of the founder dogs. You will never have seen pictures of Romulus or Remus, of Natuk, Timber male, Timber female, Tacante, Shy Lady, Bronx Warrior, Wolfgar, possibly Digit, but you will have seen Buck - the ink mark - and others too numerous to remember their names.

How do you know that I am telling the truth? How do you know that I even met Eddy, and bought Hal from her in 1997? I could be making the whole thing up.

And yet you could easily say to someone in passing, who had mentioned Edwina Harrison - "oh yes, there is a girl on Dogsey who bought her dog from Eddy in the 90's". See what I mean?

Yes....times and ethics have moved one.
We tend to have the welfare of the dogs forefront nowadays

I partially agree. I think the way Eddy saw it was purely from a health point of view - she, like me, was fed up losing young pedigree dogs to genetic diseases caused by inbreeding - and she wanted to start again from scratch, by putting the wild ancestor of the dog's genes back into the mix. A bit like, to give a rather un-pc analogy, a human experiment of taking a white caucasian and mating him or her with a Kalahari Bushman or an Aborigine. That is not the same thing as mating a dog with a wild wolf, because the Kalahari Bushman and the Aborigine are not truly "wild" any more, but it is the closest we could come to the equivalent experiment.

There's not too many choices in this country are there?!!

Not really.....most Wolfy behaving dog I have known has been a spaniel.

Indeed. We know a lot more know about the true needs of our dogs than we did even 13 years ago when we bought Hal.

I was totally ignorant about things like sa, hip dysplasia, the importance of very early socialisation, a whole host of things. I just brought up my dogs like my parents did, without questioning.

Did he lack human handling from birth? I know of many farm collies who were never touched by a human hand barely for several weeks, who have the wolf fear of humans.

My lb is over, so I'll have to catch up you later xx

No idea....but wolf he is not

Thats why I asked

If her aim was to truelly achieve the perfect healthy dog then why would this ever be the right thing to do.

I think we believe whatever will allow us to sleep better at night. Rose tinted specs spring to mind.

I was going to say the same thing. If Eddie was so against inbreeding why the hell did she do it herself TWICE. Doesnt make sense to me.

I did no know Eddy and do not wish to speak ill of the dead, but surely if she wanted to produce a healthy, decent looking dog, she would've health tested the dogs she used, (which would have been carefully selected dogs), and she would've used only the best , as well as keeping records. Whilst on one had I am grateful as I have the dogs I have today, on the other I think alot of todays issues stem from poor organisation and thought, way back then. Honestly, it seems Eddy's day was little different to today, when it comes to these dogs.

your right ww :-(

Thanks Layla, I know we don't often agree, I only wish that I was wrong on this one xxxxx

same here :-( xx

And it went from bad to worse once JK got her hands on them.

What was their relationship?

The reason I am asking is because I have discussed this very point with farmers with collies. Apparently, if the bitch whelps outside and is left to her own devices, and the pups are not handled much, if at all, and once their eyes open they don't see a human face, they will bear many traits of their wild ancestors - in other words, be very fearful of humans, but will probably bond with their family if allowed to. But strangers, they will be terrified of. They will always be hard to handle, possibly very destructive, and just "wilder" than you would expect a domesticated dog to be.

I am not suggesting that your little spaniel falls into this category, but it could be that if as a wee pup he and his litter mates were not handled much, if at all, it could be the answer. Do you know any of his litter mates at all, to compare him with? It could just be he's a throw-back to his wild ancestors, and that's how it is. As I have said before, next door's GSD is incredibly wolfy in her behaviour, temperament and looks, and although she did not have a good start in life, before our neighbours bought her, she was certainly handled as a pup etc. etc. in the normal way.