LAb X Belgian Shepherd

Hi,
Back in august we took on an 18wk old lab x Belgian shepherd. He's a great dog but does seem to have missed out on a lot of socialisation before coming to us we think, so theres a few issues we're trying to help him out with. (He had been homed at 8weeks, so we're effectively his 3rd family- I also think that, from what Ive read, that 2nd upheavel cant have helped him)

I'm quite used to labs however having never had a BS I'm on a fast learning curve & trying to make sure we get it right with him with regard to his training etc. So Ill be asking for advice on the rest of the board soon!
From what we've heard one parent was a choc lab the other was the Belgian Shepherd but we have no idea which kind of BS. From looks we think it might be malinois (just going by the coat really) though he is completely black with just flecks of Ginger undercoat around his ruff.. What do you think? This pic is of him at about 20wks (new lappy means I dont have acces to recent pics right this moment!) Hes a lot bigger now obviously and despite most people likening him to a lab, I can see theres more to him than that!

Belgains are great dogs, nosey, drama queeens,good in the house bu manic outside, liketo wrestle play & box play!

Heres my OH s Gronnies

I would have guessed a Lab x but never guessed the BSD

Look a great Pup - have fun with him

Lovely little dog, but I can only see the lab too!

I'm loving your o/h's dogs there too Mish, right little stunners they are too!

If he is a Belgian cross, then the Belgian parent would have to have been a Groenendael (black long-hair like Mishflynn's above).

The other Belgians are all fawn, which is a dominant gene to Black and Chocolate (on the Lab side) so the puppies would all have been fawn. The exception to this would be if Labradors have the dominant black K gene, I'm not sure that they do.

Short hair is dominant to long-hair, and Labs are highly unlikely to carry long-hair, so the litter would be shorthaired!

The other possibility is the other parent is in fact a black German Shepherd - many people mistakenly think these are Belgians (just look at some of the free-ad sites and some rescue pages).

I will try to find gronnie puppy pics for comparing!

This is what Callan (BSD Groenendael) looked like at around 20 weeks old

I was always under the assumption that black was dominant to most other colours? or is black only dominant in all cases when the dominant black gene is involved? Labradors certainly do have the dominant black gene...my male is dominant black by parentage.

As for the pup, I don't see much if any BSD, Malinois or otherwise. Did you see the parents or are you going purely on what you have been told?

He is a really beautiful dog and thank goodness he is now in a loving and responsible home. Good luck with the training.

In Labs where there are only 3 colours, then yes - Black is dominant to those others.

The Dominant Black gene (K) is something else entirely, and not present in all breeds. It's been found by DNA analysis to exist in Belgians, though.

Normally, a sable/fawn dog is A(y) and a solid black is aa.
If you cross a sable to a black, then you would expect the litter to be all sable (unless the sable parent carries a gene for a).

Dominant Black, K, acts in unexpected ways and kinds of "overrides" that rule. Which is why you sometimes get Fawn pups in Groenendael litters.

I didn't know about it until I got my dog Merlin, who is fawn, but came from two black parents! Being genetics -minded, having formerly bred cats, rabbits, mice & rats, it was - to me - a genetic impossibility.

When I read up on the K gene in Belgians it all made sense: his father, a pedigree Groenendael, would have been Kk - = Dominant Black carrying one gene for non-DB, but also having a sable gene A(y) and one gene for ordinary black, a, which were being masked by the K.

His mother was a black & white Working sheepdog/BC, so she would have been kk aa = no genes for Dominant Black, but two genes for normal black.

The six puppies comprised 4 blacks and two sables. The only way that could be possible is if the K gene was involved, most likely on one side only.

I'll dig up a link to an article that explains it better, if I can find it.
EDIT: http://www.belgischeherder.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=187&Itemid=158
re-posted on a Dutch BSD site.

i might have a read up on BSD colour genetics, sounds interesting!

Great - Louie's never gunna have springer fur

He looks like a black sheep - a gorgeous one though - love his fluff


And to the first post - Your dog is amazingly beautiful, I would never have guess BSD either

thanks for all the replies!
I did wonder myself about whether theyd mistaken some other breed (or cross even) for a belgian shepherd. His nose is longer and narrower than a lab I think. My main reason for wanting to know is just to understand his personality etc really. We didnt see his parents due to him coming to us as his 3rd family- however, by chance, it turned out one of his litter mates was at the same puppy classes that we attended and they confirmed the alleged cross, I didnt think to ask which kind at the time tho (doh!)

His coat is longer and denser than a lab- but if the short hair gene overides the long then that might explain why hes not as big and fluffy as those gorgeous Groens at the begining of this thread! His personality - when we first got him he was extremely nippy, and jumped alot- he'd chase after my 7yr old and jump to bite him on the back of the neck, we've stopped that now and hes gradually getting the message not to use his teeth so much when playing. He harrasses the cats to play by pecking/nipping at them too. Hes incredibly determined and persistant and would happily have my attention 24/7 if he could get it!! HEs very vocal, he went through a phase of barking right at me for attention or to play or just generally if I wasnt doing what he wanted, now he'll just make odd noises and chunter on lol. There are other barking issues outside of the house that we need to sort out tho, he sounds & looks very aggressive (people dont see him as a pup due to his size I think) though generally his barking is when on a lead and through either frustration due to being ignored/not able to play or uncertainty/fear of a situation.

2 more pics from about 2.5mths ago, daft ears in the 1st but you can see his coat a little better!

handsome wee pup but to be fair... living and growing together is how your going to understand his personality ;-)

i do not see bs either... but does that matter

Same thoughts here xxxxxx

Love the first pic xxxx

Beautiful dog. Well to me I would say that he could possibly be half BSD. Something around the eyes. Definitely seems to have the high energy too, although that could just be a pup thing.

It only matters as i'm conscious that diff breeds have diff characteristics and knowing where they might be coming from could help in understanding a little of why he does certain things and how best to approach his training iykwim

Loving the new pics of him there, he really is a little smasher, and it sounds like you're going to have real fun with this little man, brace yourself lol!

You say you were the 3rd owners at only 18 weeks old (I think you said?), do you know why that is, did you ask about the other owners and why they couldn't keep him? Only interested, plus I'm very nosey!!! Just seems so sad, that he had 3 owners at that really young age:-(

By 3rd I mean he had the home where he was born, then he was taken by a family at 8weeks, they then needed to rehome him due to being moved abroad with work (forces) apparently which is when he came to us. I have my doubts that it was really case, he is a handful and I wonder if the cute little Andrex puppy-alike became too hard work. His nipping and barking was quite ott at first and he still has submissive wetting issues bless him!