Border Collie breed standard Discussions

As the Lab thread seems to have expanded to include collies (and other breeds), and I personally think the breed standard in the BC matters less than most, I have started a new thread

So, how important do you think the breed standard is for the border collie, given that it is still very much a working dog?

I think it was a mistake to register the breed with the Kennel Club. If it ain't broke, don't fix it imo.

That said I do think breed standards are important, without some sort of registry many breeds would cease to exist I think. Sadly there are always people who will take a breed to an extreme (which includes either working or showing) if it means egotistical glory.

The best thing the KC could do is prevent a Champion being crowned if the dog didn't already hold a relevant working/show title (ie the dog needs both titles before being called a champion). Would solve a lot of problems as far as I can see?

Personally, breed standard means nothing to me.....but then, i don't and wouldn't show my dogs, its not something that appeals ;-)
I do think it's very sad to see this magnificent breed being bred so they are half the size they should be :-( there seems to be a trend for these small BC's.

Jann xx

Same goes for the working type ESS, sometimes it's impossible to tell the difference between working Cockers and working ESS these days. That's why I think breed standards can play an important role in pure bred dogs.

I suppose the BC is different in that the ISDS registry exists. For me though, the collie is the main modern working dog. It should be functional before anything else. Obviously health and temperament are included in that function. To the numerous farmers and shepherds who use these dogs to be able to earn their living, breed standards mean absolutely nothing - and, to be honest, why should they? They are using this breed for its original purpose and working collies haven't actually changed very much over the years. The dog needs to be fit and healthy to be able to work all day on the hills, and if it isn't then it wouldn't be bred from and so on.

But would it?

Working titles will only cover the breeds that are "duel purpose"

It wont help those breeds that are extreme!

I agree though breed standards are important, without them breeds would deteriorate.

I don't doubt that breed standards are there for a reason, and sorry to keep banging on about the same thing , but working border collies aren't bred to any breed standard and for centuries have just been bred to work on the farm. They still look like border collies and haven't deteriorated in any way imo.

And that is exactly the thing with showing - it seems to go through trends and fads and in many cases, the dogs themselves suffer.

Yes but breed standards don't automatically mean the dog is unfit to do it's job. It's the people who breed them without any thought to the dogs original function that make a breed unfit. Likewise in many breeds that are worked, it's the working folk that change the way the dogs look to better their chances of winning a competition.

With the BC I would imagine it's job has never changed so the breed hasn't either.

That's kind of obvious though isn't it, dual championship can only benefit those extreme breeds that are dual purpose!
Those with out a function should simply be fit for life as a companion animal, rather than fit for function.

Am I right in thinking that those who work their dogs on the hills either choose unregistered dogs or register them with the ISDS? If that is the case then it won't affect them, having dual championships would just serve to prevent the show BC from becoming purely a show dog.

I think in all honesty you don't want it to work as you've said yourself you see no point in their being breed standards and it appears to me that you have no time for those that have a passion for the WHOLE breed, rather than just the working side. So whatever I say is going to fall on deaf ears isn't it?!

I personally agree with Ripsnorterthe2nd.

It wouldn't effect the working dogs at all because (and correct me if I'm wrong please) people who go to trials are doing the ISDS part, and they wouldn't have to show their dogs to become a champion. But if you have a "show dog" then you should also have it proven in working trials and such in order to become a show champion, because they're supposed to be looking for the best dog for the breed, and what's a border collie that can't herd? Just a regular dog IMO. It would put a stop to all the people out there breeding just for looks, which IMO isn't healthy for the breed. Yes it would make a lot of people out there start over and change a lot of things, but in the long run the breed as a whole would benefit because they will all be border collies, and not some fancy look alike.

On a side note: I worked at a boarding facility for a time and a border collie came in. Now I was excited because I've only met my girl Jessie and wanted another experience with one. It turned out to be of the show type, and was super hairy and super lazy... Turned me off of the show types immediately. I just plain don't like all that hair!! My Jessie is rough coated and IMO a border collie shouldn't have much more hair then her... It just looked wrong...

I do see what you are saying, and if the show BC had to do a working test to prove it was fit for function, then great

However, for me, the whole point of the bc breed IS the working side ;-)

What irritates me is that Joe Public have this image of border collies as black and white, rough coated. A few months ago I passed a woman with 3 BC's of her own and then she asked me what my dogs were. The vet didnt even think Jessie was a full collie because neither of mine fit the stereotype that has been created by the show world.

The collie still remains very much a working dog and shepherds dont really care what they look like as long as they do the job. There is so much diversity within the breed and thats what I enjoy.

I personally dont think the breed standard is that important but then I am from the working fraternity and not the show fraternity!

Means nothing to me, Im not keen at all on the show type.

I prefer sports dogs, Just like the sheep working dogs these are bred on ability.

There are health problems across all types sadley

I prefer the more working type, tends to be a bit leaner/taller than the show ones I've seen recently.

Teg is pretty classically marked but lots of people ask me what he is as they haven't seen a red and white before.

To me a border collie is 1 thing
It is the way that it works, with the eye and inteligence

Breeding for the dogs who do the job best has ment we have a lovely range of looks in the border collie but every one of them looks like a border collie

tbh it totaly freaks me out to see a group of show type collies, its like stepford collies
especialy how they are going in america
They are all heading towards a more juvinile apperence, more domed heads, bulging eyes and bigger boned (although the standard last time I looked said medium boned with slight favoured over heavy)
They are all the same hight with almost exactly the same markings
and yup I agree, far too much coat, and far too hard work coat - the rough coated farm dogs I know have the same coat my two have, teflon coated, dirt and burrs dont stick and only needs brushing when I feel like something to do

People say without the standard the breeds would deterioate and we would loose breeds
Its simply not true - we had breeds before we had breed standards, form folows function, the dogs look how they do because of the work they are bred to do
but
especialy in collies, breeding for looks alone you are in very real danger of loosing the working ability because it is such a special thing

a border collie IS the ability to work sheep, loose that inteligence and you might as well have a lab in a tux

Totally agree Ben, although mine doesn't work (she wishes), that is only due to the face I got her when I was 15 and in high school and I wanted a dog, she was available and she has been the best. No breeding behind her but I see the herding instinct and the patience and everything in her, I just wish I had the knowledge and the opportunity to work her. The next one I'll do more work with for sure

Funniest thing to watch is her trying to herd our snakes... Seriously, she has so much patience, she stares at them and tries her hardest to make them move, and when they do she moves in accordance... silly dog doesn't know that they could care less about her...

At Crufts this year, one of my friends and i were cooing over a group of BC's walking past us, saying how cute all those puppies were...........our other friend (RookGeordiegirl on here) informed us they were in fact fully grown show type BC's On closer inspection, they had short legs, extremely long coats, and every one of them looked like a clone of the next in line :-( :-(
I walk with a lady that has two small Collies, they make my two look huge!! but they are pure showlines, whereas my Skye has show and working lines, and Drift is pure working line. It is fascinating to me to see the difference in their behaviour, such as bird chasing......hers will literally just chase and bark, while Skye in particular will stalk, and then wait and try to hold them with "the eye!"

Jann xx

Hi - am following thread with interest - any pics showing the different types?

Very interesting topic. I have 2 border collies and they are both farm dogs and they come from a generation of working dogs. Although they are not KC registered they are strong, healthy dogs and work well both in agility and obedience. My older dog has done extremely well in the Obedience Competitions this year.They are really intelligent and learn very fast. My friend has a pedigree BC who is much smaller than mine. I think the collie has now been breed into 2 bloodlines. The working dog and the pedigree show dog, and it comes down to personnal preference which one you prefer. Although both my farm dogs still meet the breeding standard, it was never a concern of mine but do agree that with out it many dog breed would have changed too much or been lost forever. Fit, healthy dogs was my only concern