Labrador colours, a guess anyone? Discussions

A dog that is fat .overweight will be more prone to joint problems, but a well constructed Lab is not fat, you seem to think show Labs are overweight, an overweight dog in the ring of any variety will NOT do well, the judge once he puts his hands on the dog will be able to feel this, he will also be able to SEE excess weight hindering a dog movement.

Would you say a well covered muscular Rotti was overweight, or a nicely toned Staffie, are they overweight because they dont look lean or skinny!!

Show Labs are no more prone to HD than any other breed, in fact as they are more likely to be hip scored than the working variety so less likely to suffer the consequences.

Now, if you have a lets say working type Lab, that is light in bone, but overweight its more likely to suffer joint problems, as said dogs bone structure is not suitable for excess weight.

A correctly bred Labs bone structure will be such to carry his muscular conformation, would you ask the same of the Rotti that is well bred and health tested, is he mor elikey to suffer joint problems than an overweight whippet:?

I'm not saying she is fat, she is a big build though, a lot bigger then the everyday Lab, what I will ask though, well it might not look like a question to start off with, but wait, more weight on the joints can increase problems with the joints like HD, although not being over weight there is more weight there because of how they are built, are things like HD more of a problem in the show labs (although I suppose that would only really be answerable if every breeder hip scored, and there was no BYB breeding only for cash)

I can't find the original post Chaz - so please forgive me

In response to your question, also answered by Jackbox, there is no known correlation in the UK between the typical hipscores of working and show bred Labs - the breed mode has remained between 8 and 10 for the last 30+ years with a small drop in the overall year on year average.

You could argue that not every dog is scored - however, there does come a point that an average becomes a representative sample size, and with over 67K dogs scored (in the UK alone), I know you would have to have a HUGE number of dogs scoring very badly or very low to make even a miniscule indent in the overall figures. ;-)

I think the point DD was making is that a Lab that is bred to breed stanard should /could if put out to work be able to do said job,

I.E , the construction of the dog, the dogs natural instinct.

Obviously , some will not have the temperament to do said job, they may be gun shy or just lack drive, but the opinion held by some that a show dog could not possible do a days work,(because of its construction) is held through a total lack of understanding of said breed, they seem to think, the taller leaner working dog is the only type that can work.

As has been shown on this thread, many a duel purpose Lab, is able to do both, and the standard of these dogs are to the breed standard... NOT a one type over another.

Dual purpose dogs are bred to breed standard, and the fact they can go in the ring as well as work, proves the point being made.

A show dog could work (if its temperament suits) some of the working dogs yo usee, would look so out of place in the ring next to their counterparts of the same breed.

..... i really dislike the term 'dual purpose' (said alot with my breed too) surely in a working breed they should be the one and same.

Yup would be nice!

As for someone said earlier that the dogs conformation and 'natural instinct' should make it able to do the job it was bred for
If you dont breed for the instinct and the work ethic then it will loose it

Just out of interest, these dual purpose dogs, how GOOD are they at working? just cos they can work does not make them a better option to breed from than a fantastic worker who has a slightly light eye colour or little spashes of white on his paws or something

Form follows function. Just cos a dog looks like it could do the job means nothing
because if healthy dogs are able to excel at the job having the 'wrong' conformation then the standard is wrong/ too restrictive, not the dog

Well my guess is, if said "duel purpose" dog is a field champion as well as a show one, it is pretty good at doing both :?

They are a champion in the field and the ring.

Field trial Champion Hiwood Chance, born 1928.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KzrQzJtsI...Xjev-7E4o/s1600-h/FTCh_Hiwood_Chance_1928.jpg

FTCH Banchory Ben, born 1927.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_KzrQzJtsI...4q3PY4W-2-g/s1600-h/FTCh_Banchory_Ben1927.jpg

DUAL Champion Banchory Painter, born 1930.
http://www.retrieversport.hu/images/dual/banchpaint.jpg

More proof of early working Labs that look NOTHING like many we see today.


For clarification.

Sh Ch - Champion in the show ring.
Ch - Champion in the ring and working qualified in the field.
Dual Ch - A champion in the field and the ring.
FT Ch - Field Trial champion.
FTW - Field trial winner.

No - the dog should be single purpose....to work. IMO - showing is not really a purpose - just a hobby for the owner.

COuld someone please explain to me the difference between CH and the Dual CH?....

champion in field and ring is 'dual'

I did.
Dual champion is a champ in the field and in the ring. A "ch" is a champ in the ring and has basic qualification in the field.

I dunno what the titles are like for labs, how tough is the titles? What types of dogs are they compeating against?
Bringing it back to collies (cos thats what I know best) I totaly love 1 man and his dog, but that is worlds away from ALL that is needed out of a dog who does the job day in day out. Its a nice way to see the dogs doing what they love the best
Some of the guys I know do some of the shows, but they do it for fun with some of their dogs who are less handy around the farm, but can do a showy outrun and handle the sheep in those conditions

Quite alot different from the dog I spent the day with who didnt need whistled commands to see the lamb in the wrong field and bring it softly and gently back to its mother.
Who ignored the farmers command to return because he had found a sheep caught in the ditch, and who then, without agression, was able to scruff the ram and hold it to the floor for the vet to get a hold of him
He wouldnt get anywhere in the showring, or the working trials, but he was the exact perfect dog for that farmer on that farm

and for info my friends have 2 of his pups because although he was bred to a fantastic bitch the litter didnthave any interest in working

This seems to be something people forget. Breed Standards were drawn up before breeds split off, the breed standard is the blue print of the breed drawn up to describe how the working dog should be. It's the same with Springers, many people think the working type is the correct type, when in fact the breed standard was drawn up before the breed split. Working people drew up the standard to describe how their dogs should look. Sadly some of the working people are only interested in how well their dog can work/how many trophies it can win etc to bother looking into conformation or health, in the same way some show people aren't interested in how well the dog can do it's job etc

Because all they're interested in is winning/being the best, much the same as some show people are only interested in making up champions. Both extremes exist and that's when breeds split.

Oh my Lord!! What utterly stunning dogs, I want another Labrador NOW!

Ah wouldn't that be nice? I wonder what would happen to breeds if the KC decided to only grant Ch status to dogs who had both titles, eg the dog could only be crowned a champion if it had 3CCs and was a FtCh? Will never happen, but an interesting thought!

To quote from Brigburn Labradors:

What use a Labrador without a Labrador temperament or a Labrador that can't enjoy an active life through joint or eye problems, or for that matter a Labrador that doesn't look like a Labrador.

So very well put imo. Working breeds are wonderful when seen out working, but what's the point in having separate working breeds if they all look like mutts? Working Labradors only resemble Labradors because they're registered with the KC and therefore breed within the breed. Remove the registration and I honestly don't think it would be long before working breeds were indistinguishable. As someone has so eloquently put it on here before "life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog"! As much as I love mutts, if I buy a Labrador I buy it because I want a Labrador.

Showing, when done correctly eg to better the breed, rather than to better the ego, will serve a breed very well. The same can be said for working, please don't believe that working folk can do no wrong just because they work their dogs. While show people are being slated, it does well to remember that for every bad show breeder there is an equally bad working breeder.

http://www.brigburn.com/html/sedge.html
Love this chap too!

sorry I might have missed some posts - are you talking about show or working (or both?)

Lab numbers at champ shows are typically high - some shows attracting entries of well over 400 dogs - Crufts was around 650 entries - only Goldies are sometimes marginally higher - but I don't think any other breeds come close to those sorts of figures in the showring.

Numbers have fallen slightly over the last year or so, but I think that is across the board, rather than just Labs.

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Working, I would be lying if I said I knew - but I would hazard a guess they are equally as high - and there is competition across the breeds? Gamekeepers rings also have good entries at Crufts

FTAW are often seen as red on pedigrees and, I understand, no mean feat.

In the UK, a Lab cannot be made up to a full champion without it's Show dog working certificate - and most of those who have made their dogs up go beyond the certificate.

There are quite a few Labrador kennels with feet firmly and successfully in both camps including Leospring, Warringah, Abbeystead, Kaspair, Woodmist, Ardenbrook, Brigburn, Naiken to name just a few.

CH Carpenny Anchorman who is my girls grandad is an outcross of showlines and Leospring dual purpose lines and took the reserve CC at Crufts out of Puppy, and went on to take BOB the following year. He is now at Leospring.

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We did start gundog training with some of my youngsters, unfortunately, my dad's illness and recent death, coupled with having to cut our cloth through work drying up has seen us put it on hold for now - but I fully intend to get back out there with them - as four of mine show good potential to take further (the other two are too old now really) .

There is definitely a growing interest in working to various levels across the board with an increasing number taking their SGWC - I've now got three I could pursue if and when time allows (my interest does lay heavily on the show side).

I have seen people comment on testing working capacity in some way in the showring - it can literally take alll day sometimes to judge all Labs at a show now

- you forget - I have a show bred dog - that I work.
sadly - she is the first carrying her breeders affix (that the breeder knows about) who is working on sheep.

I find that quite sad really.

No - the dog should be single purpose....to work. IMO - showing is not really a purpose - just a hobby for the owner.

Most show dogs are also pets - you don't see that quite as much in the working arena

Anyone who think showing is just a hobby for the owner clearly has very little insight into it.

You cannot show a dog that doesn't want to be there -it's pretty much impossible

The dogs love it as much as the owners (and sometimes more) - my dogs go beserk when the showbag comes out - even more so than going to the beach, training, going for a walk etc.

I did not say the dogs did not want to be there :? not sure where that came from or who said it?

However - I would hope showing is a hobby - something that the owner can enjoy with the dog, as soon as it becomes more, you get dogs being passed on and over who are not good enough etc. Which is something I cannot get on with (in any hobby or sport). I'm afraid I go with the 'A dog is for life.....' slogan

I found it heart wrenching to watch at a sheepdog trial the other day - some of the dogs are treated as commodities.

Having said that - there seems to be something a dog gets from working at the job it was bred for that does not seem to come out in any other activity they do - not matter how well they do it.
I have no issue with people doing showing/sports/working their dogs - in fact - the more the better IMO - I hate seeing dogs who have nothing to do.

That's how it came across - my apologies if I misinterpreted what you said.

I agree with you that it is nice to see the dogs doing what they were bred for - my weakness is in that I don't have a keen interest on the working side - but will pursue it if it is right for the individual dog.

We had a 3/4 show bred boy from our last litter go to a working home - and I've got an open invite for the future to go and see him in action - I cannot wait ;-) (and no - that isn't tongue in cheek - while I might not have the interest for me - nothing would give me greater pleasure than to see one of my own bred dogs in action )