Labrador colours, a guess anyone? Discussions

Near King Harry Ferry and Trelisick Gardens. Walk sometimes at Perranporth. I know Cubert a bit---swam with a seal at Polly Joke once!

rune

Thank you for your reply Tarimoor (& Rune, thanks for your post too ).

I'll have to research the arguments on working/show labs as I wasn't aware that this was an area of debate.

The attitude towards breed physical conformity also saddens me as, from what I've read, this seems to arise solely from peoples' perception (or KC rules?) of what is "attractive", rather from an inherent desire to ensure that physically & mentally healthy dogs are born.

I've seen quite a few choc labs used as PAT dogs, hearing dogs & assistance dogs to the disabled, so presumably the various shades of brown don't affect the dog's abilities in those areas.

Thank you for your reply Tarimoor (& Rune, thanks for your post too ).

I'll have to research the arguments on working/show labs as I wasn't aware that this was an area of debate.

The attitude towards breed physical conformity also saddens me as, from what I've read, this seems to arise solely from peoples' perception (or KC rules?) of what is "attractive", rather from an inherent desire to ensure that physically & mentally healthy dogs are born.

I've seen quite a few choc labs used as PAT dogs, hearing dogs & assistance dogs to the disabled, so presumably the various shades of brown don't affect the dog's abilities in those areas.

Id disagree with that. During the 7yrs I did Lab rescue, the pet bred ones were usually the ones that had temperament issues. Ben mated to Sally etc.. We did see some extremely hyper working bred Labs, but most of those I was able to get into either the Police or Prison service as drugs and explosive dogs. Good and bad in all breeds, many of the temperament faults were down to the owners not the dogs. Saying that, even now choc Labs seem to cause their owners more problems than the other colours, as I said these are the ones exploited the most.

Do they like the way they look as puppies? Or are they going on what mom looks like?

Chuckle, the main arguments are (not to go into great detail) working labs are snipy faced whippets, and show Labs are overdone and overweight. Whilst it's true you get extremes at both ends, there are nice examples of both types that I personally admire, but I know others wouldn't, and can't bring themselves to accept meet the breed standard because it doesn't look like their image of a Labrador, or fit their expectations.

The breed standard, other than giving a guide to the appearance, is obviously there for a reason, because that's what makes that breed work overall. Labradors need to be capable of retrieving game, as small as a snipe, and as large as a goose, as efficiently as possible, and to have the stamina to carry on throughout the shooting season. Some of the arguments from both sides, are that working Labs have the wrong conformation for jumping, many having a more upright stifle/knee joint, and yet it doesn't seem to hinder them particularly, and other animals, such as deer have very upright knees, and manage to jump perfectly well. Another argument is that some of the show Labs are too heavy to have the stamina to carry on working throughout a shooting season without risking injury, which gets the show folk up in arms and posting pics of show Labs jumping five bar gates.

So with the case of a Labrador, it's certainly not just what's attractive, but what works. But this is yet again another area of contention, that I've seen discussed many times, frequently vehemently.

Many are far too light in bone, long and weak in the muzzle. A few show Labs are overdone for me, but not to the extreme the workers are.

I work my Terriers to the gun, I know a lot of people who have working Labs which I admire immensely, however they are not snipey, weak and resemble a Whippet!

Do you think size is that important? This is my 14lb Border working on a rough shoot.:

Woodie.


Crow.


Pheasant.


Most FIT Labs would have no problem doing a days work.

Do you mean straight in stifle? They have a tendancy to luxate easier when the kneecap doesnt sit correctly, thats bad breeding too! Deer dont have straight stfiles, they have completely different bone structure.

Never seen show folk get up in arms about that, who were they? Maybe they are cross because as proven, show Labs can work.

Still, when you breed a pedigree dog you should be breeding it to its blueprint.

Borderdawn ~ you seem to know a lot about breeding & showing. I would be very interested in your views on my post 131.

Thank you.

If so many are far too light in the bone, and weak in the muzzle, how is it then that they are out working, and not all working folk are queuing up to buy a show bred Lab?

I never said size was important, just gave an indication of the range of size of game a Labrador is expected to retrieve ;-)

Straight/upright, call it what you like, it's something I've seen mentioned many times about working bred Labs generally, the same as I've seen the comments about show Labs being too heavy, not my opinions necessarily, just some of the arguments that I've come across frequently.

If show Labs have no problems working generally and the ability, and were all so fit then why is it we don't have any dual champions around in this current day and age? Surely there would be a smattering at the very least?

Well my dog proves that the size and weight thing isnt the real issue doesnt it, Ive seen working Labs struggle with a cock pheasant. Working folk like to breed what they breed, they do not, much like the Springer and Cocker, come anywhere near to the standard thats laid down for them. Springers got bigger to do a Labs job, their legs bowed, labs got lighter to work faster and they wrongly thought they'd have more stamina, they dont.

As in all retrievers, small and large.

Yep, people will always disagree, would be awfully boring if everyone agreed!

Because people dont want to show and work to that degree I suppose. Showing is expensive, working is time consuming, doing both very seriously would be a huge ask.

But why have labradors been bred to two different types in the first place? I still don't understand this part. Surely labradors were originally bred as gundogs, to retrieve game, etc. Why has this lead to a distinction between working & show labs?

Maybe because their original function differs from their modern functions? I know nothing about labs but i've just read that their original function was retrieving fishing nets and other water based work.

Today they are mainly used to retrieve game birds and perhaps the working strain of lab fits that specific function better than when the breed standard was created and their function at that time.

Thanks for your reply.

I think this needs a bit of research on my part instead of taking the lazy option & expecting dogsey folks to come up with the answers

I have to disagree about the spaniels, if you look at any old photos of spaniels, I personally think the working type aren't the ones that have moved away. There is a large range in size with some of the spaniels, it's true, but I've seen quite a few smaller working springers too.

As for Labs, surely if they were too light and lacked stamina, people who work them wouldn't stick with them, they'd find lines that were fit and did the job they wanted. I know people whose dogs work over 50 days regularly each season, they certainly seem to have more than enough stamina to do what they're bred to (dogs that is), and wouldn't be asked picking up/beating if they didn't.

I think it's a great shame that there isn't one show person that, having a dog capable of competing in trials, wouldn't have a go at it. There seem to be more and more Labrador, and gundog owners, interested in competing at working test level at the very least, a bit of a resurgence in this activity, and I think it's great, I really enjoy seeing them, lovely for the dogs and the owners.

Wilbar, you'll get two different answers, depending on whether you ask someone who works their dogs, or someone who shows them, and both will insist they are right ;-)

The St John's Dog was bred to retrieve fishing nets in Newfoundland, but the shooting gentry of the time, paid large amounts to bring some of them over to England, and combined with a few other breeds, we get the Labrador Retriever type. So they weren't bred here to retrieve fishing nets, but that is the very root of their origin, at least as I understand it. They were bred as an all round retriever, and took the place of other popular retrievers of the time, flat coats, goldens and curly coated.

Wilbar - great post as ever!

IMO form FOLLOWS function - but show people see it the other way around
To me if a dog has the correct temprament, health and ability to do the job it was bred for then it dosent matter what it looks like
If the 'overly leggy' dogs with snippy muzzles or whatever are doing the job then THEY are the labs

I know of a brder collie rescue who asses what is a border collies based ONLY on how the dog moves sheep, dosent matter what it looks like, a collie is the way the dog works nothing else
and (and it was ages ago so I dont have the info) I heard of a dog looking v much like a beardy being registerd on merit as a border collie because of its working style

So I find the argument over coat colour petty
Noone should be breeding for colour and if 2 great dogs produce a great pup that just happens to be a colour not on the breed standard but it is not associated with any health or behavioural problems then really the standard is too restrictive and needs reevalued

The Welsh Sheepdog Society does just this. It doesn't matter so much the dogs' breeding but if it herds like it should, it can be registered.
Similarly a dog cannot be registered if it cannot work as it should, irrespective of parentage. So all registered Welsh Sheepdogs are working dogs that have a passed a test working stock!

They like small stocky springers down here to push through the undergrowth.

rune

Blimey Dawn-----shall I go out with a clipboard and ask them?

I do know a few who say they don't like the stocky solid labs but I suppose someone must like them other than the people who show-----just don't often see them.

I do have a friend who does working trials with a more show type lab---as well as lots of other activities.

rune

couple more of harvey, he does water retrieves on shoots and as you can see jumps right in lol.
his previous owners had papers for him and said he came from working lines.





he's also taller than breed standard being 24" x