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BUA- The British Utonagan Discussions

Discussion in 'Utonagan' started by alady??, Jun 4, 2010.

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  1. inkliveeva

    inkliveeva New Member

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    Elaine
    #101 Jun 5, 2010
    The 2 N.I pups you got came from a litter in which one of the pups has been found to have HD, How will they possibly even with good hip scores themselves be of value for furthering your breeding programme ?

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  2. Moonstone

    Moonstone New Member

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    #102 Jun 5, 2010

    :shock::shock:
    Who are the pups parents?
  3. liz & kiesha

    liz & kiesha New Member

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    Liz
    #103 Jun 5, 2010
    Well Razcox said they were from the same litter as her pup so that would make the parents - Mahlek Pawnee Ammick & Gengalers Kynance.
  4. liz & kiesha

    liz & kiesha New Member

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    Liz
    #104 Jun 5, 2010
    As seen above, but maybe she meant the older girl Elena & not Raina? Which would make the parents Mahlek Inukshuk & Cabales Ellison Chaise.

    Im sure Raz will clarify when she comes online.
  5. Moonstone

    Moonstone New Member

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    S
    #105 Jun 5, 2010

    Thank you, xx
  6. Borderdawn

    Borderdawn New Member

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    Dawn
    #106 Jun 5, 2010
    Im sure she said JK? That would be the younger one. The sire of her was mated to its litter brothers daughter!:roll:

    Oh and Kynance, not hip scored? and has produced HD, including a bitch with a score of 23:21! GREAT choices these people make!

    Of course the Cabales lines include high hip scores too, and patchy coats, same bitch, bred from it though!

    Ammik has produced very high scores too, like one of Tracey Fowlers who scored 33:35, which just re-iterates just how much these people care, being a dog bred by JK too, yet they go for this breeding for "improvement" do me a favour!!!
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 5, 2010
  7. liz & kiesha

    liz & kiesha New Member

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    Liz
    #107 Jun 5, 2010
    Well it will be interesting to see what Alady says about the above and what answer she has to KateM's post.
  8. Borderdawn

    Borderdawn New Member

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    Dawn
    #108 Jun 5, 2010
    Yeah plus the questions I asked about eliminating parents and puppies that produce MRD from the breeding program.
  9. liz & kiesha

    liz & kiesha New Member

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    Liz
    #109 Jun 5, 2010
    I could be wrong but i think Alady's Raven is out of Sulin Dakota Moon who's blamed for producing the MRD.
  10. Borderdawn

    Borderdawn New Member

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    Dawn
    #110 Jun 5, 2010
    Well, you gotta blame somebody! Why not admit the truth, its in the breed and ONLY removing ALL affected and PRODUCING animals from the gene pool will help? Too easy innit!:roll:
  11. liz & kiesha

    liz & kiesha New Member

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    Liz
    #111 Jun 5, 2010
    Well Sulin kennel do seem to get blamed for everything but all the BUA founding dogs do seem to be Sulin breeding so go figure.

    Alady will no doubt explain.
  12. Meg

    Meg Global Moderator

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    Meg
    #112 Jun 5, 2010
    Aladay are you really doing what our 'respective breed founders did'. In what way, please explain.

    Of course all breeds started somewhere but most of them started in very different times under very different conditions than those we have nowadays.

    A lot of breeds were started by those requiring working dogs for specific purposes, people like farmers, game keepers, terrier men who bred a litter when they needed a new dog and kept a couple of pups from each litter culling the rest usually by drowning . When they got a good dog he would be widely used at stud passing on the best traits.
    So a core of good dogs of 'a type' developed, breed clubs were formed and breed standards set by the clubs later to be recognised by the KC.


    Then we had the wealthy landowners with the 'hobby kennels' . I have worked with those who started out breeding and showing dogs in the early 1900s along side people like the millionaire dog breeder and kennel owner JV Rank (brother of J. Arthur Rank, the film magnate) for whom money was no object. They had huge kennels and the staff to go with them. Many litters were bred and run on but only the best dogs which were true to type in conformation , ability and temperament were selected for breeding. The rest were kept, sold or given away. I understand JV Rank and other wealthy breeders imported many good dogs and made them available at stud free of charge to improve blood lines.

    So with our 'respective breeds' , after many years of selective breeding good breeding lines were established with dogs consistently breeding to type to produce clearly recognisable breeds.

    Of course expenses were a lot lower then, there were no health tests, vaccinations, antibiotics and very little in the way of vetinary care (I knew the old terrier men who would dock puppies tails by biting them off and putting a cobweb on to stop any bleeding ). Thank goodness we now live in a more enlighten age where culling and cruel practises are no longer acceptable.

    Returning to starting a new breed now, thankfully culling is out and very few people with the exception of someone like the Queen have the resources to breed litters and keep them all in order to select only the best for breeding so I don't see how anyone can really start a new breed these days (and I am not talking here about the people who cross a couple of dogs and give them a silly name).

    In order to start a new breed from scratch now you would need to begin by writing a standard, a blueprint for the breed setting out the required conformation/looks/ traits . Then select a number of top quality dogs from which to breed and run on all the puppies from each litter in order to select only the best which conformed to your standard to use for breeding purposes. This is the first stumbling block, bearing in mind large breeds have large litters who can afford to run on entire litters and what do you do with the surplus adult dogs which do not conform to the standard.
    You can sell them but who wants to buy an adult dog and one which is supposed to be of a certain type of dog but isn't. You could give them away having spent a fortune raising them, things which are given away are not always valued . How are you going to stop people breeding from these dogs which are not of a type and using the name of your new breed.

    Ok so you don't run the puppies on, instead you select a couple of puppies and hope they will turn out ok for breeding . What if they don't ,do you breed from them anyway because they are all you have or do you get rid of them creating even more adult dogs which may be bred from when unsuitable and carrying the name of your new breed with no conformity looking like exactly what they are, crossbreeds.

    I haven't even gone into the topic of health testing and running on stock to test to make sure it is healthy before being bred from (something they couldn't do years ago without modern technology and testing techniques).

    Sadly Alady you are not prepared to listen to anyone who does not share your views and those of your group . You also make derogatory remark about a forum which provides you with a platform to have your say, that speaks volumes to me .

    Most of us here on this site for Dog Lovers have the best interests of dogs at heart something which seems to be sadly lacking in many of those who seek to create a new breed just to satisfy a whim to possess a dog which resembles another animal.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 6, 2010
  13. Moonstone

    Moonstone New Member

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    S
    #113 Jun 5, 2010

    Sulin, is like Mahlek to the N.I, I should think nearly every Ute has Sulin blood.
  14. Louise13

    Louise13 New Member

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    Louise
    #114 Jun 5, 2010
    It stands to reason that the only dogs being allowed into the BUA "breeding" program would be Mahlek dogs..do you really think JK would allow someone elses breeding to be there "in the beginning"??? NO..its another of her.."its my dogs that made it what it is">.and you know what..she will be right..As the the only thing its making is a big mess..
  15. Moonstone

    Moonstone New Member

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    S
    #115 Jun 5, 2010

    Did you expect her , to allow anything else?:mrgreen::lol::lol:

    That is one woman on the biggest Ego Trip. Of course, all the rules were bended again, such a shock!:shock:;-)
  16. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim New Member

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    Liesl
    #116 Jun 5, 2010
    Funny how Alady?? hasn't been back to answer these questions!
  17. mishflynn

    mishflynn

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    Mish
    #117 Jun 5, 2010
    They dont come in Blue!:shock:
    Although you can get a Terv in a silver Sable,as opposede to a red sable. is that what you mean maybe?
  18. Kalasin

    Kalasin New Member

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    Kalasin
    #118 Jun 5, 2010
    Tracey's boy was castrated and is kept as a family pet so not part of the breeding program...
  19. Borderdawn

    Borderdawn New Member

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    Dawn
    #119 Jun 5, 2010
    OK, bare with me now, I knew I had a lot of hip scrores and other info somewhere and Ive found them on the other computer!:grin: Took me ages though.:roll:

    Id like the NIS response from some of these please. Ill also copy this post to the Ute thread as the breeding is relevant to their "new" stock!

    Mahlek Istas of Julestar
    Born 30-7-2006.
    Sire - Dark Raven at Mahlek
    Dam- Gengalers Kynance (Im sure this is the bitch JK calls Zuni)
    Hipscore 44.

    Mahlek Olakhota Sweedlepipe of Julestar
    DOB 16-12-2005
    Sire- Dark Raven at Mahlek
    Dam- Mahlek Eowyn
    Hipscore 51

    Olakhota Moonchild at Thistlenook.
    DOB 29-12-2006
    Sire- Mahlek Bad Moon Rising (Moon is a son of Raven)
    Dam- Mimeena at Olakhota
    Hipscore 37

    Mahlek Causin a Riot at Stormlake.
    Sire - Dark Raven at Mahlek
    Dam- Gengalers Kynance
    This is a repeat mating of Mahlek Istas above, but born just 6mths later!
    Hipscore 56
    From what I can gather, at least this girl was spayed and the owner took notice of the problem, not like some of the others.

    Mahlek Kaskae at Honiahaka
    Sire- Mahlek Pawnee Ammik
    Dam- Mystical Sky (cant find any info on this bitch) Hipscore 68

    This is just a few, I have more but I think they are on a disc somewhere bare with me!
  20. Lunakitty321

    Lunakitty321 New Member

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    Danielle
    #120 Jun 6, 2010
    What are you "seeing for yourselves"? What are the qualifications of these trainers and behaviorists? What breeds have they got experience with? How long have the been working with different breeds? You said "its easy to see as a pup"...what are you looking for? How can you tell? What makes you qualified to make that judgement call?

    If you are looking for temperament, then shouldn't the proper way of evaluating the dogs mean to evaluate them, not only as pups, but as mature adults...since its a large breed, usually this means they don't fully mature until around the age of two, will that mean that you will be having breeders wait until that age to make sure that the temperament is sound?
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