BUA- The British Utonagan Discussions

Me to, would be really interesting imo.

Think the crossing was with gsd, not sure if there was 1 or 2 litters, my memory seems to think it was 2.

Would love to see some pics as well.

Thanks for your reply

I breathed a sigh of relief when I read your reponse on an NI x GSD thread in November quoted below.....

The position then was.....

We thought that we would leave out Husky due to the piebald colours, the blue eyes and lack of recall (runs for cover....no offense to any lovely huskies) for the moment, we have looked at Belgian Sheps, Working GSd lines, a few pet lines(only as they are the old fashioned shape and we wanted a few whites again for future colours ) and Mal (just a little)...but we are option open for the next few years once we see the next few first cross pups develop and then mate.

Now the sibe is back in the breeding programme, the above undesirable breed specific behaviour no longer an issue, and the justification for it's inclusion, because it is 'clever and intelligent'. Such little respect and understanding for one of the world's most ancient canine breeds.

I am so so sad to hear that once again the Siberian Husky is to be used in an experiment to try once again to create a 'wolf look alike' dog.

I say the above with the greatest of respect Lanie and hope you can understand why I feel the way I do. Our differences are important but they should never make us loose sight of our mutual passion......dogs!

Take care.

Seoniad.

how can you hand on heart tell people what traits they will have when most of you have not lived with the breeds being used....just crosses of....all guesswork :-(

then again..wouldnt be so much of a problem if u kept the offspring to maturity...as was done with a 'new breed programe'

That would be the correct way to do it, but it seems it would cost too much so they are doing it on the cheap by selling the offspring. BAD BAD!!!! This is why it is never going to work. Thats all they are doing is experimenting with the poor dogs. Shame on all of them.

As said it is all on uor forum, you will seethe first mating produced a really good dog, he has won best puppy at 3 shows all independant judges and his critiques are also on our forum

I do totally understand, I have pedigrees too and this is why I undertand constructive arguement to what we are doing I truley do, We have sourced 1 that we would like to put in with no piebald behind him, again it is as we feel we need the full 3 founders to be input again. And also the pups produced IF they are okd for the futuer will have to go back to Shepherd and the lines will not have anymore husky or Mal input.

with regards the rude posts about Frankenstien and playing..... simply not true, we are only doing what ALL your respective breeds founders did....if it asnt for them NONE of you would have your breeds.... I will answer anymore questions on our own forum as I cant abide the way in which Dogsey is moderated and the amount of abuse that certain posters are allowed to post.... I have said many times I have no problem with genuine questions and constructive comments, but abusive remarks are not necessary, I offered to answer you honestly and I have I will not however put up with the rudeness. I have kept a civil tongue in my head for the sake of BUA and the breed but my patience has worn very thin...

Any genuine enquirers please you are more than welcome to meet me and question all of BUA and see what we have planned... but Im afraid my time on here is pushing my patience...no-one deserves the abusive and catty nonsense tht goes on in here....until some folks can act like adults then I will answer questions in a forum moderated properly with the abusive posters reprimanded..

But you ARE playing with dogs lives. Living breathing animals. You all seem to be making mistakes after mistakes in your breeding programmes so you just go a different route time and again and the only ones that suffer in all this are the DOGS. Did you honestly expect all Dogsey people to agree and say well done on your experiments, because that is what they are EXPERIMENTS, if so you have definately posted on the wrong forum.

The good thing about these threads is theres always something to read .

The whole thing makes me uncomfortable, people are churning out cross breeds, people involved in the types fall out with each other, the whole thing is a mess, I have cross breeds, I love cross breeds, but I don't like all of this which is happening its shamefull. To me this whole thing is just as bad if not worse then breeding designer dogs, at least breeders of them don't seem so bitchy to each other. I'd also want to know the justification of people mass breeding any dogs of any types like this, I am all for great breeders but with so many dogs in rescues before any litter is bred a breeder should be able to go to a rescue centre and look into the eyes of a dog who has been waiting for a new home for a long time and be able to explain to both themselves, others and even the rescue animals why they are breeding more animals into this world, and they should be able to pledge that any dogs they breed will not suffer that same fate.

Heather, to my knowledge BUA has made no mistakes so far, this is the first "route" we have taken, we are using health tested dogs, we are documenting everything correctly....and we all love our dogs dearly and they I can assure you have a very happy life ...just because you dont agree with mixing breeds doesnt mean our dogs are unhappy.

And it is the same as any breed being created it has been done over and over in the history of the dog...and looking at the majority of "pedigrees" well we cant really do any worse can we?

you are not doing what the founders of our breeds did,they involved culling and not selling on pups produced.

funny how you will now post on your own forum...cos you will get all your 'followers' telling you how fab and right you are!!i really believe you do not understand how breeds were achieved oh and ethics? heard of them

you are playing with dogs lives,you will never have a type for your 'crossbreeds' meanwhile...the world exp england is getting very antidog,and what do u do? produce more pups to fill rescue centres...... go you!!!

Oh I wish it was an easy process! We have been trying to weed out RD for many years in spitz and still haven't managed - despite having a rather fine database of all spitz bred in the UK and their eye testing results when submitted (I liked the comment you made earlier about the database you have being better than any kc breed - i'd probably risk challenging that one given the spitz database for anyone who wants to nosey it database is here I've set it onto one of mine, but click the links on the page to go to other dogs, you can see things like how many litters a particulr breeder has had, how many times dogs/bitches are used etc as well as health test results and pedigrees)

When you say you weed out those pups that have folds in the retina at puppy screening - you do mean that you are discounting the entire litter for future breeding prospects? Given that are you also then removing the parents from the gene pool?

Are you also warning potential new owners that they may be faced with a blind dog by the time it's six years old or so?

Can I ask you if you are totally against BSD being crossed with NI or UTe

Easy indeed, Kate I know exactly what you mean. Im told that out of a litter of 4 tested from "clear" parents 3 of the 4 were affected. 2 had multiple grey lesions in the tapetal fundus and the other (3rd) had "fold like lesions" all akin to MRD. According to the Ute site, 1 in 4 puppies from "clear" parents could be infected, however, this is 3 out of 4!

This is why I asked about the litter screening because I couldnt find any certs pertaining to it. I sincerely hope that the breeder has eliminated the parents and puppies from the breeding program and also has spay/neuter restrictions on the pups.

I cannot stand hoe these people "experiment" with dogs, its disgusting.

i Kate it is nice to see a pedigree breed being so open with their records, as the GSD are starting too now, just to clarify our dogs DONT have retinal dysplasia that is TRD, they have been found that a few have retinal folds which actually is a common occurance in similar shaped heads eg Rough Collie also, the folds are possibly MRD it is our breed club that decided to follow closely with regards to this in the litters to stop any incidence of problems to the dogs in the future...NO dog has EVER had a problem and according to the eye guys never will most pups with folds hae a clear screen at 1 year old and are screened yearly, we where advised not to pull them out of breeding, and we are working on only breeding pups that hae been clear from 6 weeks as this we have been told is how we know the carriers, we have been tracing the carriers and clear s and in a few years this willbe erradicated all together...if however it was more serious and the dogs where affected yes the whole litter would be pulled out as would the parent/parents that had carried it.

If you read the difference of MRD to TRD it is vast I wouldnt ever breed any dogs with TRD nor would I ever risk producing a dog with health problems.

I'm sorry, but you seem to have been very badly advised regarding retinal displasia.

The whole reason for screening between 6 and 8 weeks is this is the only time when it is possible to pick up the potential for developing some forms of retinal displasia.

Typically, as the puppy grows the back of the eye enlarges and the folds will flatten out, however, they remain weak spots. Up to about 5 or 6 years old you would not see anything wrong with the dogs eye, but the weak spots will then start to deteriorate and tear, leaving the dog at least partially if not fully blind.

Obviously, by the time the dog is 5 or 6 it could then have been bred from and passed on the disease before it fails an eye test with RD at a later age.

The folds in the retina are the only clue you get to the fact the dog may develop it later, no it won't show up at a screening at a year, but it probably will later on. Leaving the dogs in the gene pool that have the folds in the retina is highly irresponsible.

Hi,

First of all I think you will find most members are not childish,immature,vindictive or jealous. They're dog lovers, who have are concerned about what is going to become of the dogs created.

How long have you owned a Ute? and why have you decided to breed? I only ask as I can see a pattern forming where somebody buys a couple of puppies, and within a year decides, or gets talked into breeding them in the future. Personally, I think a person should live and breathe a breed for many years, learning as they grow, from pup to death. Your dogs all look very young, so wondered why you choose to breed ?

You say you will use Kiah, but aren't you concerned that his Sire's Ammik's hips haven't been scored?






Alady???? I still think it's the wrong thing to do, we have no right to play God, there are enough breeds out there without creating another one, there are far too many thing that can go wrong, and I am still not convinced by your reasoning for it.

From the description of what you described earlier, if people want the dog you described a dog with Oomph. Then get a Sibe, or Mal, or if it's the wolfie thing a CsV. These 3 breeds have what you are looking for in buckets. Now the CsV and Saarloos are more available to people, I can not see a market for the Ute or N.I, let alone crosses of these dogs. You can not gaurantee these crosees will get the traits you want, they could get the very worse, big dogs, that have guarding issues,prey drive, dog aggressiveness,once you start adding a little more of this or that, you can completely change the nature of the breed.

Surely you have to create a litter, wait a few years to see how they turned out, and then try again, so in ten years you could only have three generations, if this is done properly, but that is already a lot of dogs that need homes, and for you to keep track off etc.

I don't doubt you want to make right all the past mistakes, but sometimes it's just better to let go, and move forward, as in no more breeding of these dogs, and let them die out.

Kate please read:

http://www.lab-health.co.uk/Tests/MRD.htm

as I said it is NOT in the same league as what you are dealing with, and before making any pressumptions on our advise read our own reports WE and our specialist know exactly what we are dealing with through the research that has and is being done in OUR breed as do you in yours.

Thats the problem with this forum a little info taken out of context and made into something it is not....i am so sick of being spoken to like a numpty, if I was in any doubt of the competence of those involved I wouldnt be here backing it up with the conviction I have. What makes folks tghink they know better.....once you yourselves have researched the breed and also the health and pedigrees etc as much as I then come back with your opinion, because then it may gain a little respect from myself.

Not sure why you thought posting that link was a good idea, I know it is for Labs but it clearly states Those affected should not be bred from but the condition, so long as the sight is unaffected, makes no difference to the dogs’ ability to be a worker or pet. So kinda stoopid for you to put it up!!

Can someone please answer my question about Kiah, why are you intending to use a dog who's sire has not been hipscored, it isn't the best start is it.

You seem so confident, you are doing the right thing, let's just hope for the dogs involved you are right, because at the end of the day they are the ones who are going to suffer, if this all goes wrong.

what breed????

Alady it is a big problem in sibes alone!!!

Odd, i had thought that growth development in the eye was the same for all dogs.

Not entirely sure what you mean about the "same league" - we have a few instances of RD - which is MRD not TRD - TRD would result in blind puppy from birth.

http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/Eye_Leaflet.pdf shows the different types of eye disease in dogs from the BVA.

Out of interest - who is your specialist? I know we are working very closely with the BVA's panel of experts and also with the AHT trying to find genetic markers with a view to establishing a DNA test and the mode of inheritence, as until this is known it is safer to disguard all suspect results from breeding programmes.

With respect, it is not a "little info taken out of context" you yourself stated something that is actually incorrect - that the folds found in puppy screening are nothing to worry about because they would not be present by the time the dog is a year - whilst yes, they won't be present at a year, i disagree that it means that there is nothing to worry about - I for one would not consider buying a puppy of any breed whose screening results showed that there were retinal folds.

ps..

Quick search on the list of those breeds on both schedule A and schedule B of the BVA's list as having MRD shows that everyone recommends that puppies showing retinal folds at the time fo puppy screening be removed from any future breeding programme