Liver/Gold GSD Discussions

I have found a lot of awful things since touching upon the dog world, far worse than breeding a bitch once each year. I have not met these people or their dogs but by all accounts their dogs have fabulous temps as well as good looks, ref health tests I cannot comment.

As for hypothetical breeders, the generalization was from real accounts. The thread was started ref the good looks of the dog
not about his owners ethics.

Yes agree many things in the dog world, are awful, but two wrongs dont make a right... and for me and any "ethical" breeder , breeding every 12 mths would be right up there in the "unethical /awful" category, because simply a good breeder will be thinking of their bitches welfare... first and foremost, breeding back to back (or almost) yr after yr, is not the sign of an ethical breeder... well for most its not!! not is advertising your pups on " those sites"

Yes you are right , the thread started about he dogs good looks, but when someone mentions.... stay away from him, due to bad hips scores... it will rouse interest ..

Don't be surprised when the thread takes a turn in a different direction,

Don't know the mean score of GDS , but it will be in the BVA /KC records...so will be interesting to see what the other scores come out as!!!:?

Nice looking dog.

Can't comment on the health test results, as I've got know idea what they are. But, if the results are that bad then it would be quite irresponsible to breed from him.

On the subject of colour as it has been mentioned.

Yes liver isn't an acceptable colour ref the standard but imo, when it comes to working breeds, if the colour doesn't have any associated health defects and doesn't impact negatively on the dogs working ability, then I don't and never have understood why they're excluded. Apart from a few people not liking it, which imo, isn't a valid reason.

Colour is colour, I don't think dogs should be bred only for it, but I don't think that they shouldn't be bred, worked or shown because of it, if it isn't detrimental to the dog, then who cares if it is solid black, white, liver, blue, blue and gold, liver and gold, black and tan, red and black, bicoloured, trycoloured, brindle, sable etc.

Excluding a dog from the gene pool for something as frankly trivial as its colour, only limmits diversity imo.

Hehe, sorry, your post made me chuckle as if you read the PM I sent to Werewolf at the beginning of the thread, you wouldn't need to ask that question.

I DO have a problem with the welfare of the animals, but I don't think it would be fair to slate Icemead when they're not on here to defend themselves, which is why I sent my opinions over PM

I'm led to believe the average GSD hipscore is 19.

Hi Nes.
Why not comment on the heath? If his hips are awful it speaks volumes for the people who own him and the people that will buy pups by him or use him at stud. Still, colours mean everything to some people.

yes, thanks for that, I have since looked up the mean score... anyone with a BRS for pastoral, will be able to see what all her dogs scores are, as they will be published .. would be interesting, to see if health is actually a consideration in her breeding practices.

Yep agree, shame is those who buy from a breeder who breeds from poor hips, may get an unusual handsome dog, but crippled before its time... a nice hefty price to pay out in trauma for the dogs and vet bills for you, simply because you want colour over health.

With a hip score of 37, I think they are dispicable for breeding from the dog, shameful. Mind you, perhaps they need their import fees back!

Icemeads Mr Copper Bottom Hipscore 32/5 = total of 37

and not to mention the high score but the unevenness of it.

Would be interested to see the other dogs scores.

Have to say, its unusual for a breeder not to put on their site the scores of their dogs.. not much point in announcing they have been done, but not revealing the scores.

Nes et al I've fallen in love with True, really love this dog and her colouring!!!! Now all I need to know is are these dogs safe with children and cats???????

Many dogs who experience pain and discomfort can be a little unpredictable for very obvious reasons, doesn't matter if they have the best temperament in the world.

Also, a dog who sheds/moults unusually heavily can be an indicator of the body trying to repair itself due to injury/illness etc. not that some of the folks on here sound like that is something they would like to know.

At the end of the day, if you do not have health in your dog... you have nothing, no matter how good looking you think they are.

I think it is shameful how people are so unconcerned regarding the health of their animals or their prospective (long term ??) investment.

Sorry to be off topic but where can I go to find out what is acceptable re' breeding. How many litters are acceptable and within what time frame???? Would love to know more about what's what in the world of dog breeding???
TIA
Valerie

I agree 100% on the without health in your animal you have nothing and agree re' health and of these animals and their future!!! Well said!
Valerie

The dogs are gorgeous, but unfortunately their health may not be, I enquired about these on here a while back

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=111432&page=2

Jodeeuk advised the words barge and pole! So my search continued, and still is......

Can anyone check the hip scores of dogs on the KC website or do you have to be a member of the KC?

thanks xx

Hello Guys,
I too have met all of Icemeads dogs and found them both stunning to look at and be around. They have outstanding temprements with adults, children and other animals alike...... I have seen many good practices for my self carried out by icemead and know that all of thier dogs are hip scored all under the kC/BVA breed standard of 19.
Although Icemeads scores are not publicly aired on their site I feel this information is at the disgretion of icemead to share and can also assure when i bought a puppy and enquired both parents scores were disclosed to me and I also got a copy of their certificates when I purchased my puppy.

I have used The stud dogs myself with my females and I am extatic with the outcome of their hip scores also under 19 and well balanced.
I'm sure if anyone was wanting to discuss this matter any further Icemead would love to speak to you and would give you the time to talk through any issues you may have regarding their breeding.
I can also confirm that Icemeads carefull planning has ensured that the dogs that have been kept from previous matings to Bow have been hip scored and 3 out of 4 have well balanced hips which meet KC/BVA standard of 19 and under.

The Kennel Club's accredited breeder scheme which Icemead is apart of has also inspected thier dogs and has given them their highest approval.

I have never been to a kennel quite like it, all of Icemeads dogs are kept as part of the family, extreamly well looked after, professionally groom once every 2 weeks on top of the grooming they already do and live the life of luxuary.
As stated by the kennel club

Breeding and Sale of Dogs (Welfare) Act 1999

Breeders who breed four or more litters per year must be licensed by their local authority. Breeders with fewer litters must also be licensed if they are carrying out a business of breeding dogs for sale.

Licensed breeders must:

a) Not mate a bitch less than 12 months old.

b) Not whelp more than six litters from a bitch.

c) Not whelp two litters within a 12 month period from the same bitch.

d) Keep accurate records.

e) Not sell a puppy until it is at least eight weeks of age, other than to a keeper of a licensed pet shop

or Scottish rearing establishment.
There for Icemead has not broken any rules and if they and their vet have both concluded that the bitches are fit and healty I see no reason why this can be seen as unethical.......... As far as I can see Icemead are breeding by the book and giving people so much pleasure out of owning one of thier German Shepherds.

The only Valid point i can see is that Bow's Hips are above breed standard however if you took the time to contact Icemead you would understand why they are as high!

well its not down to the environment as icemead says is it ?!!
His daughter who has just had a litter of pups there has a hipscore of 21:3 !!you only dont publicise things when there are things to hide,quite a lot in icemeads case

hmmmmm...are you Icemead

my thoughts exactly!

So do you not know of anyother breeders out there that have bred from dogs with a hip score of 24??? I could possibly list many.

To me this shows that icemead are bring the scores down not making them worse.
With carefull planning they are obviously doing something right...... and like i said Icemead have never hidden anything as if you were to Call them on the number stated on their website you will be informed of the dogs hip score. Puppies from this said litter have been sired by a dog with a balanced hip score again under Kc/BVA 19.

No I'm not Icemead i'm mearly defending someone I feel people are giving bad press and publicising my views and feeling on Icemead. I have used Icemead myself for stud and like i said i'm ecstatic with the dogs that have been produced.