Crufts GSD BOB Winner not what KC want Controversial

Shona, Hi

The comment was made by Balding and Kisko was totally cornered, really. She pursed her lips a bit in tacit resignation. It was an agreement as she went on to say...(paraphrased)....yes, and the KC are doing everything in their power to sort this out.....

Mary

thanks for that I have not heard what was said or seen the footage, I dont see given what you have said though that the kc have done any wrong here?

No, nor do I, I think, with the negative publicity of the breed, they are just covering their backs??

the part that really concerns me, having now seen the dog moving in the ring, is,...... when the dog is pulled up for the turn he lost his back end, one leg went under him

Rips posted a link to the flicker site a few posts back. I have just posted my comment there on the extreme angle of the rear pasterns and how it needs to be sorted. These dogs are pretty stoic too, and will trot for miles in a straight line, but have no spring and flexibility in the rear because humans have forced conformation into an unnatural shape. It stated with the show stand and has crept into the 'norm' for construction.

I feel utterly blessed that I am in an unexaggerated breed (long may that remain and I shall continue to counter breeders who breed for too much coat and a showy tailset...

Mary

just read the flicker site, how long before people in the breed take note??

The people "in the breed" as you put it Shona, are usually far too busy stating that they (whichever side of the fence they are on) own the "correct type".

The International Germanic breeders/exhibitors argue that as they health test acording to the teachings of the SV and follow the lead of the GSD's country of origin regarding conformation, colouring etc etc etc that they are right and the people they choose to call "Alsatianists" are wrong.

The "Alsatianists" to reuse the phrase argue that their dogs are "correct" as they believe that the GSD should look quite differently to the International/Germanic people. Many, if not most of these people do not health test as they do not feel it necessary or that seems to be the feeling I get.

Both groups seem to feel that the German Shepherd is a different dog from an Alsatian despite the history of the creation of the name of the breed and the rewording due to the World Wars. Both feel that their type is "correct" and the other is "wrong".
Both sides of the fence equally appear to believe there are only two "types"..."Correct" and "Incorrect" and I have seen many posts from both sides stating that "there is no middle of the road" it is either "Correct" or "Incorrect".

There are some of us that love the GSD and have done for many years (I have owned GSD for 28 ) that would say that there IS a "middle of the road" and that is a GSD with no extremes whatsoever and this is the type we personally prefer. There are those of us that say "A GSD is a GSD and regardless of it's conformation, it is still a GSD".

Personally, I feel that BOTH sides are as guilty as one another for changing the GSD into something it was never meant to be in terms of conformation and as with many many breeds, the shape, temperament and stability of the GSD have been altered by mankind for the detriment of the dog in general.
Joe Public, outside the breed seems to dislike the extremes shown in some dogs on both sides of the fence as can be heard at shows for both types as well as at Crufts where both can also be seen.
Personally, I feel that while the two "types" continue to bitch and argue between themselves nothing will ever be done that will put the GSD back where it belongs...Crufts Best In Show.
BOTH types need to get their heads together and discuss in an ADULT manner, what HAS to be done to get the GSD back into the shape it should be, health tested, corrected bred to ensure healthy, happy pups that turn into healthy, happy GSD that are ALL capable of performing the many functions the GSD has proven itself in in previous decades.

Rant Over...Thanks For Listening.

Dave

Good post Dave. Wish there were more like that!

A well written post.

just to be nosey, have you any pics of what you consider middle of the road, and what should be aimed for for the future of the breed.

Well said Dave!

It's shocking isn't it? I was reading the comments before I posted the link and it's saddening that people don't want to see what's right in front of them. That dogs movement said it all for me I'm afraid.

Shona, as Dave points out there are extremes the difference is the Alatianist deliberately breed for their type to look the way it is, not all SV type dogs are extreme if you attend the shows in Germany especially the main one in September where you will see approx 4,000 dogs over the 3 days you would see that for yourself. One of mine Zandi is extreme his croup is too steep for me, and he was loose as a pup but correct exercise management from a young age sorted that out. Neither of his parents were extreme, they would be what Dave classes as 'middle of the road'.
What I do dislike is abnormal colours especially the breeders that deliberately breed dilutes to each other, even to the extent of creating 'Isabella' double dilutes (blue/liver) and also breeding for the white spotting gene in the US with breeders importing them into the UK when in the US a few decades ago it was shown that there were serious health issues linked to this. Surely people have heard of lethal colour genes such as fawn mice and the lethal white overo which lacks pigment in the skin. These people playing around to produce abnormal colours are just producing freaks. You only have to look back in the GSD history to know that standard colours that have produce white such has Avon Prince and Vello were linked to epilepsy, blue producer Uran linked to epilepsy and dwarfism yet these people continue to play around with genetics.
I like my dogs to be high at the wither with a level top line and a sloping croup (but not steep), I preferred dogs of the 90s but many of these could be sharp (excellent defence drive with low threshold) these make excellent workers but not suitably for family life or therapy work etc.
The dogs are not trained to run in straight lines as Mary stated they are gaited around football and rugby fields/stadiums, the problem is the majority are kennelled and all breed shows are held outside on rough grass, all training is done outside, most only ever walk on carpet or smooth floors at All Breed shows hence they are not used to smooth floors, have you ever watched a dog the first time it goes onto a laminate floor?
Before people make judgement on the GSD at Crufts (who was not extreme){ I would put the link for his pics on PDB but they would get removed as it also as a forum} they should go to view the dogs in their natural environments or at one of the large Breed shows whether here or in Europe.
I noticed looking at some of the clips other breeds also did not move correctly whether stilted action or in one case appeared to be dragging its rear leg:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHSQWxk4s1A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wvlamH_YOA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpCN07u9OCE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USZxR41GQR4

these are just a few I have found and also maybe the Bulldog people can tell me what this is all about:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQRoRw9qetA

All breeds have their problems, in the majority they are major health issues, the difference is those decent ones amongst the WG showline are aware and are doing something about it, they are involved in research, new tests have been developed ie one for AF another for Dwarfism people are using the tests, but not the work line neither the Alasatians. You get bad apples in all breeds those that are in it for Kudos and money they achieve from breeding but there are many good breeders out there and many good dogs.

Yup.... I have heard of most mouse/rat/gerbil/cavy/chinchilla/hamster/rabbit/cat/dog colours and genes. Have worked with many of them over the last 35 years.

To which gene in mice do you refer?
Pink-eyed dilute (p) isn't lethal, and Extension gene fawn only exists in combination with e and dd blue. Neither of these have a health effect on the mouse.

I don't think the p gene is present in dogs, but we do have Extension e and yes that often gets combined with d blue dilution, without any deleterious effect to my knowledge.

Overo is a horse white-spotting pattern and is only present in horses; to my knowledge piebalds of THAT type don't exist in dogs. The nearest you are going to get to Overo in dogs is merle. And merle doesn't exist in GSDs.

And that is by the by...... Why divert the argument to colour, when structure is the subject under discussion here?

I wasnt speaking to you was I, I was answering Shona Q, by the way you havent answered mine talking about diverting the topic!

Thanks a bunch. If you start shoving things like mouse colours into a discussion about GSDs then people who actually know about mouse colours have a right to comment, surely?

I doubt the mouse and horse genetics thing was directed at Shona! You have no right to complain if you toss things like that into the argument and others pick you up on it.

Regarding mice I was referring to Ay - Dominant Or Lethal Yellow : Because Ay is a lethal gene, there are no homozygous forms of Ay. Ay/Ay young die at approximately 6 days of gestation and are reabsorbed by the mother.

Re horses it is only one type of white spotting and does not cover Dominant White, Appaloosa, Tobiano genes, if white spotting does not occur in the GSD what is the panda shepherd supposed to be? there as been reports in the US from over 20 years ago of a line of GSD with a type of white spotting linked to serious illness and early death.

You still have not answered my questions, the answer was in reply to Shona, I am aware of health issues relating to colour in particular white spotting in the American GSD.

I had posted this in a separate thread but realised it would of been better in this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksO_Xb95dbY

Thanks for the links, some made me laugh - some cry
Although I dont get it why you are trying to defend the GSD by saying other show dogs are as bad - that is no defence!

It does make me cringe to see all the merle aussies and shelties after seeing on an american website for aussie breeders saying how to tell and cull the deff dogs from a merle to merle mating! Sick

I like the GSD in the before in this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfifc9RDJpc&NR=1&feature=fvwp
All the after ones make me sad, with the neopolian as someone once said it looks like the southbound end of a northbound elephant