Yellow Flat Coats? Controversial

why repeat a post that moaned about the British KC when you are in America and when it is discussing breeds that are not relevant to this discussion. I ask (again)

What do YOU do?

What is it that YOU do that is helping the breed rid itself of cancer?

What research are you doing, what evidence are you compiling?

Where are your statistics that will tell me that yellow FCRs are healthier and live longer than their black or liver counterparts...please show me as I would love to hear that they are and that that could be used to help the breed?

How many yellows have you bred?

HOw old are they?

How old were they when they died?

What did they die of?

Did all dogs undergo a PM so that it is clear what they died of?

Have you helped the American Flat Coats Society with any of their research..have you filled this in?
http://database.flatcoat.us/


Do you pass this information onto your puppy 'clients'
http://www.fcrsainc.org/health/youcanhelp.html

I answered. It seems to me I am doing a lot more than you for the good of Flat Coated Retrievers and I don't even breed.

And my ....errrr..... Extended family of adoptive puppy parents know everything I share here with the bullies in this sandbox.

Are you the person who`s crossing Flatcoats with Cockers? :?
Flockers?

sorry do you mean clients!

Yes, no offense but, as your name suggests and your actions... Rambling on and on.


1. The question was posed to you.
2. Outcrossing does far more for a diminished gene pool than further researching inbred lines
3. The foundation stock is the template for future generations so to not WANT to acknowledge that is ignorance.
4. ASSuming the road to any outcrossing efforts end with a 2 dog mix is really narrow minded.
5. I have 5 lines of FCR and 4 lines of Cockers and a COI of 0% through 8 generations and 12 generations depending on the specimen and the planned pairings.
6. We are currently on an F2b part of the equation in the first phase of outcrosses.
7. The choices are being researched for other additions to the formula for a phenotype that is FCR.
8. With a goal of taking the final results as a backcross to the FCR.
9. Time being linear measure, we can only see in a few decades and compare results to the existing population of FCR.
10. And we're not eliminating a segment of healthy dogs from the equation based on COLOR.

If the trend continues... We will be far better of than what the current pool is offering. With a higher than average MHC genetic factor.

Now. Researching your lines back beyond 10, 12 or more generations can be very disappointing for you. Especially with FCR. We health test prior to the 2 year status quo and we do it to measure our progress.


Now, since none of you breed, tell us what you've done besides take the word of your sources that your dog is healthy. We're dying to hear. And again repeating in a vernacular you and your seem to understand ( chuckles)

I guess you also don't read through everything, because as posted... Conformation goes against to concept of diversity. Simmer on that concept and again tell us how you maintain health as a priority when your needs for conformation keep getting in your way.

We know how that went for the royal families.... Thus outcrossing with commoners helped them(snickers). Now tell us how a eugenics concept practiced by Hitler and now the Kennel Clubs is helping. Again we're all anxious for that twist and spin.

Ok - the stats you have given - I would like to know how many dogs of each breed were surveyed to give you that Median. Also wondering why the Median was used as an average, would be interesting to see what the other statistical averages were.

Also this

I am not sure why this data is relevant when it includes information about Accidental injury's and Pyo?

You still haven't answered then, so I would like to add another question.
What health tests do you do?

Yes according to your Kennel Club.....clients.


(sigh) And cruciate ligament injury is relative to the ligaments in the knee, as a collateral injury from luxating joints.

'Can be'.......

I am sure some cruciate injury's are due to hereditary defects.....but your information is very basic. I was hoping you had looked into it in more depth.

(I repeated because I think you missed my question)

Fockers?

Frockers!

Your marketing seems robust but your PR could do with some work.

What is the incidence of cancer in the lines of FCRs you are using and in their siblings?

nothing to do with the UK KC - Just how you refere to them, I mean why would the UK KC affect you.

(snickers).

Meet the.........

Whatever tests science has proven conclusive.

What tests do you do? ;-)


But then there are so many physical tests that haven't improved the situation significantly for any breed.

However, genetic testing has.

so what tests do you do and what results do your breeding stock have?

Would you like to elaborate?

1. The question was posed to you.
2. Outcrossing does far more for a diminished gene pool than further researching inbred lines
3. The foundation stock is the template for future generations so to not WANT to acknowledge that is ignorance.
4. ASSuming the road to any outcrossing efforts end with a 2 dog mix is really narrow minded.
5. I have 5 lines of FCR and 4 lines of Cockers and a COI of 0% through 8 generations and 12 generations depending on the specimen and the planned pairings.
6. We are currently on an F2b part of the equation in the first phase of outcrosses.
7. The choices are being researched for other additions to the formula for a phenotype that is FCR.
8. With a goal of taking the final results as a backcross to the FCR.
9. Time being linear measure, we can only see in a few decades and compare results to the existing population of FCR.
10. And we're not eliminating a segment of healthy dogs from the equation based on COLOR.

If the trend continues... We will be far better off than what the current pool is offering. With a higher than average MHC genetic factor.

Now. Researching your lines back beyond 10, 12 or more generations can be very disappointing for you. Especially with FCR. We health test prior to the 2 year status quo and we do it to measure our progress.


Now, since none of you breed, tell us what you've done besides take the word of your sources that your dog is healthy. We're dying to hear. And again repeating in a vernacular you and your seem to understand ( chuckles)

I guess you also don't read through everything, because as posted... Conformation goes against to concept of diversity. Simmer on that concept and again tell us how you maintain health as a priority when your needs for conformation keep getting in your way.

We know how that went for the royal families.... Thus outcrossing with commoners helped them(snickers). Now tell us how a eugenics concept practiced by Hitler and now the Kennel Clubs is helping. Again we're all anxious for that twist and spin.

No Rambler, it's more like you only read what you want. Now you answer.


My apologies in advance for any ruffled feathers to follow, But I've been told offline by a couple of your very own members who've been bullied by this same crew for loving their own hybrids or for championing the same logical thinking the rest of the world is currently on board with and unanimously laughing at you about the status quo's old news logic and denial over the issues their practices brought on our beloved dogs...

Well, I kindly backed out of the fray to see who would indeed volunteer any information on how they are actually doing anything positive for their dogs…. And in 4 pages of dialogue without me there, all that happened was more ASSumptions made about me from people who never met me, Don’t know me from a hole in the wall and yet somehow think they know everything about me and keep putting that out there instead of trying their best to provide some insight to how they plan to fix the mess created. If disparaging an invidual through a blog by virtual bullying is the best you can offer then its clear there’s going to be no insight provided here on topic to the EDUCATED public that may come here looking for the answers the status quo seems to be unable to provide. (SNICKERS)

Aside from Aereola who happens to come back with quips based on her knowledge which was gathered from her circle of friends with generations worth of doing things via the methods practiced by the status quo. At least some of her information was correct. Like Sudden rage being a problem in specific lines. But sadly she’s still preaching the old news from the establishment that’s been at this game for almost a century or more, since careful attention to this problem has virtually eliminated it on my side of the pond, if its still over there with you….well that’s too bad, maybe you should check those breeding practices(Chuckles). vIf you believe your friends, well… On my side of the pond that’s called a serious case of brainwashed.

Or perhaps you can offer some insight into why the Golden Retriever is now the number 3 Biter in Canada and the number 4 Biter in the USA, perhaps is sudden rage?? LOL

FACTOID: The Occurrence of Yellow in the FCR is as common as it is in the Labrador. If you choose to breed away from this color then it becomes a rarity through human intervention. But, even the foundation stock of dogs used to create the FCR were in fact Black or Liver or Yellow dogs. Zelstone himself was a Black FCR from Red and Liver Lines. And Nous fron the Goldens side of the equation is a Yellow from Black and Yellow contributions from FCR . These dogs were prolific studs and fathered hundreds of litters, And their progeny also fathered hundreds of litters. And so on and so on. AND ALONG THE WAY THEY WERE BRED BACK TO THEIR OFFSPRING, AND COUSINS AND AUNTS AND GRANDPARENTS and SIBLINGS. To deny it based on century old tales makes you look…. Brainwashed. And to tell others that Yellow is not common is just a lie. Or perhaps what you feel is the truth based on information handed down over the generations from the status quo. Well in modern times all I can say…. GOOD LUCK telling that story.

So what the majority public have learned is the “click” that rules this sandbox and bullies the rest of those who come to play in it are the same all around. You’ve effectively buried very helpful information with pages of nonsense. So here I am going to put a bit of common sense and logic and science back in your faces and again give you an opportunity to tell the public just what you and yours have done to change things from the mess it is now to something better in the future.

You already know what I’m doing, yet you seem to translate it in whatever way bolsters your argument. However when faced with the same questions yourself there might as well be crickets chirping from your side of the debate.
Your very own Kennel Club provides all of this information. (Chuckles)

I’ll cut and Paste from a well-written Blog I follow. Have a good read.

The story of Kennel Club dogs is pretty much the same from one breed to the next:

1. A relatively small numbers of dogs are brought into the Kennel Club;

2. The registry is closed so no new genetic material can find its way in;

3. The show ring selection system results in a relatively small number of dominant (ribbon-winning) sires being elevated in the gene pool;

4. The breed splits due to differences between types (coat color, size, lay of the ear), further reducing the already-small gene pool;

5. An extremely condensed gene pool (10,000 dogs may have the genetic diversity of 50) means that negative recessive genes are able to easily find each other and double down within a litter, resulting in offspring with disease or deformity.


With any Kennel Club breed, the only three variables in this story are:

1. The genetic quality of the dogs in the original Kennel Club pool;

2. The length of time the dogs are in the Kennel Club, and;

3. The degree to which the breed standard calls for negative morphological selection.


The genetic quality of the original Kennel Club pool is obviously important, but it cannot provide salvation, for even a pool of dogs without negative genetic traits is doomed under a closed registry and show-ring selection system.

The reason for this is the pairing of two phenomenon called genetic mutation and genetic drift.

Most genetic mutations are recessive, and remain unseen and unexpressed in the form of visible defect. In a large and "wild" population of animals most of these negative genes will "drift" out of the population just as they drifted in.

In a closed registry system with a relatively small number of dogs, however, negative recessive genes can quickly find each other and spread through the population -- especially if they are passed on by a show-winning sire with many offspring.

The result is a rapidly rising level of "spontaneous" disease and deformity out of what was once thought of as a "healthy" population of animals.

Time is a variable in the Kennel Club destruction process for the simple reason that some breeds have not been in the Club long enough to be completely wrecked.

It takes time (about 50 years in practice) for a small, but diverse population to become inbred to the point that recessive genes start to dominate, resulting in a noticeable increase in infecundity, mortality, deformity and disease.

Negative morphological selection is the third variable, and the easiest to see because it is so extreme and so overt.

Negative morphological selection is simply the practice of show ring breeders and Kennel Club standard writers to positively select for negative health traits.

These negative health traits include (but are not limited to) extreme size (very small dogs or very large dogs), dwarfism, bizarre hip angulations, overly wrinkled skin, flat faces, massive heads, and the elevation of certain coat colors (such as merle) and eye colors (blue) which are linked to deafness.

Contrary to what some folks think, the history and health problems of the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, the German Shepherd, the Pug, and the Rhodesian Ridgeback, to name a few of the dogs shown in the BBC special Pedigree Dogs Exposed, are not unusual -- only the degree to which they are easily visible to the naked eye.

Nor is a genetic bottle neck within a breed unusual in the Kennel Club. In fact, it is what the entire system is designed to do. Hence the name: "pure breed."

Genetic diversity is the opposite of what the Kennel Club wants -- what they want is "conformity" to a beauty show standard. Hence the name "conformation show."


Overall, The Kennel Club reports that of the 36,006 dogs surveyed, 37.4% had at least one reported health condition, and that the average age of the dogs surveyed was just five years.

Of the health problems reported, 14.4% were reproductive (Pyometra, false pregnancy, dystochia, infertility, cryptorchid, irregular heats), 12.9% were musculoskeletal (arthritis, cruciate ligament injury, hip dysplasia, patellar luxation), 10.5% were dermatologic, and 9.6 were ocular (cataract, entropion, corneal ulcer, epiphora, KCS, cherry eye, distichiasis).

And to repeat: Nearly 40 percent of dogs had one more or more health problems even though the average age of the dogs in question was only 5 years old!

Scottish Terrier - Terrier Group

• The median age at death for Scottish Terriers was 10 years and 3 months.

• More than 47.5% of deaths were from cancer.

• In a dog population with a median age of 4 years and 11 months, 46% were reported to have at least one reported health condition. Of these conditions, 28.3% were issues or reproduction (dystochia, infertility; infertility; pyometra; agalactia; vaginitis), 15% were dermatological, and 11% were respiratory.

The Flat-coated Retriever - Gundog Group
• The median age at death for Flatcoated Retrievers was 9 years and 10 months.

• More than 54% of deaths were from cancer.

• In a dog population with a median age of 5 years, 41% were reported to have at least one reported health condition. Of these, 15.2% were musculoskeletal (arthritis; patellar luxation; lameness, dysplasia, spondylitis), 13.1% were benign neoplasia(lipoma; histiocytoma; cysts; fibroma; granuloma), 12.0% were reproductive (false pregnancy; pyometra; irregular heat cycles; dystochia), 9.8% were dermatological, 8.3% were gastrointestinal (bloat, colitis; foreign body obstruction; pancreatitis), and 7.8% were ocular (distichiasis, goniodysgenesis, entropion, glaucoma).

Bernese Mountain Dog - Working Group
• The median age at death for Bernese Mountain Dogs was 8 years.

• More than 45% of deaths were from cancer.

• In a dog population with a median age of 4 years, 46% were reported to have at least one reported health condition. Of these, 31.5% were musculoskeletal (arthritis, dysplasia), 13.9% were reproductive (pyometra; false pregnancy; dystochia, infertility), 9.4% were dermatological, 8.4% were gastrointestinal, and 6.4% were ocular.


Deerhound - Hound Group
• The median age at death for Deerhounds was 8 years and 8 months.

• More than 24% of deaths were from cardiac problem, with cancer accounting for an additional 18.8% of deaths.
•
•
• In a dog population with a median age of 4 years and 2 months, 32% of dogs had at least one reported health condition. Of these, 17.5% were reproductive (pyometra, vaginitis, dystochia), 14.8% were musculoskeletal (arthritis, dysplasia), 13.2% were gastrointestinal (bloat, diarrhoea), and 10% were respiratory.

Border Collie - Pastoral Group

• The median age at death for Border Collies was 12 years and 3 months.
•
•
• More than 23% of deaths were from cancer. Another 9.4% were from strokes, and 6.6% from cardiac issues.

• In a dog population with a median age of 5 years, 29% were reported to have at least one reported health condition. Of these 18.6% were musculoskeletal (arthritis, lamenes, dysplasia), 14% were reproductive (dystochia, false pregnancy, cryptorchid), 11.6% were respiratory, 8.7% were dermatological.

British Bulldog - Utility Group

• The median age at death for Bulldogs was 6 years and 3 months.

• More than 20% of deaths were from cardiac issues, with an additional 18.3% from cancer, 4.4% from respiratory failure, and 4.4% from strokes.

• In a dog population with a median age of 3 years and 1 month, 46% were reported to have at least one reported health condition. Of these, 31.6% were ocular (cherry eye, entropion, dry eye, corneal ulcer), 15.2% were dermatological, 10.8% were reproductive (dystochia, infertility, false pregnancy, cryptorchid, pyometra), 10.4% were respiratory, 9.2% were musculoskeletal (arthritis, lameness, dysplasia, patellar luxation).


Pekingese - Toy Group

• The median age at death for Pekingese was 11 years and 5 months.

• More than 23% of deaths were from cardiac issues, and another 9% were from neurological issues.

• In a dog population with a median age of 5 years, 37% were reported to have at least one reported health condition. Of these 20.4% were issues or reproduction (infertility; false pregnancy; cryptorchid; agalactia; eclipse; mastitis; pyometra), 13.9% were neurologic (intervertebral disc disease, deafness), 11.1% were dermatological, 10.2% were respiratory, 8.3% were ocular, and 7.4% were cardiac.

Clearly, different breeds have different health issues, but just as clearly, none of the breeds listed can be said to be problem free.

In fact, the breeds listed above, are so often fraught with problems that they would be subject to massive class action litigation and product recalls if they were a manufactured commodity.

So how does the Kennel Club get away with a business plan that guarantees that most dogs sold "with papers" will die sooner and have more expensive health conditions than most run-of-the-mill mutts?

The answer can be found in the all-absolving language to be found on The Kennel Club's web site which says that:


"The Kennel Club makes no warranty as to the quality or fitness of any puppies offered for sale and can accept no responsibility for any transaction between purchaser and vendor arising from publication of the listing."

In short, the Kennel Club offers no warranty and accepts no responsibility for the genetic wreckage you may be about to buy.

Good luck, and you're on your own.

And don't let us know if it doesn't work out!

ROTFLMAO

Now anyone interested in rambling on and on and not telling the curious public what they've done to reverse this mess??? We're all Dying to hear what you have to say.

Or you can banter on for a few pages and disappoint us again with the romantic myths taught from within that circle of friends called the dog fancy...

(SNICKER)

Yes you've said that.
What health tests do you do and what results does your breeding stock have?
What are the incidences of cancer in the FCRs you own and their lines?
Does the AFCRS approve of what you are doing?

How old, is your oldest Chatham Hill Retriever? Flat Coat? Yellow Flat Coat????